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| Subject: right wing youth | |
Author: Owain (UK) | [ Next Thread |
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] Date Posted: 19:50:13 12/02/04 Thu In reply to: Ed Harris (Venezia) 's message, "Yes..." on 23:50:41 11/26/04 Fri I think this organisation will appeal to the young more even if it werent entirely internet based. New and radical ideas have a habit of attracting youthful attention. And a new kind of right-wing national pride is coming up all over europe within our youth (I read a very good article about it by Otto Von Hapsburg, he was worrying about it actualy, though I took it as good news). Our organisation I suspect is perfect for this neo-rightism which is losing its fondness of over political correctness and actualy starting to be... shock horror... proud of there country (obviously there all facist scum). I know this is not a right wing orgnaisation as such but I dont think you can deny that on the whole right-wingers will be most attracted to it. No offense to any lefties here, I am sure we have some. I am a rightwinger of socialist sympathies as it happens (good old government control and centralisation). [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: kind-of true | |
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Author: Frank (US) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 20:25:22 12/02/04 Thu Well, I'm a new member and its true that I lean more to the right, although I have my reservations about socialism...especially social health care. So I think u have a point. Although I must ask, I emailed in a member registration...am I supposed to get a confirmation email of some sort? [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Right wing national pride | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 20:25:29 12/02/04 Thu Right wing national pride can be a good thing if it is not taken too far. My worry with the UK is that will it be national pride for Britain or just England, Scotland, Wales or Ulster? [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Not sure about that... | |
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Author: Ed Harris (Venezia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 20:37:39 12/02/04 Thu ... Young people in our country are travelling a lot more than their parents' generation did (the so-called "Easy-Jet Setters"); and, as Ian has argued on this forum, that is something which almost universally opens people's eyes to cultural realities. I don't think it is a coincidence that my parents were better travelled as 'young adults' than most of their generation, and are all for the Commonwealth and allergic to the EEC. Many, indeed I would say most, of people around my age who are both educated and well-travelled are conservative, patriotic and eurosceptic. As for local patriotism within the British regions, I think that the same forces apply. I doubt that many SNP voters spend a good time in England; and Scots who do spend time working or living south of the border are more likely than not to discover - shock! horror! - that the Sassenachs are not bogeymen who lure children into their gingerbread houses and plot the exploitation of Scotland in leather armchairs whilst clutching globes of brandy in talon-like fingers, but are in fact just ordinary people who differ from Scots in not much more than accent and ability to cope with cold weather. Oh, and Frank, you're not alone! Socialism in all its forms is distinctly dodgy, and, if the US wants to make its health care system even worse, then the way to do it would be to adopt the British model of centralised, bureaucratic nightmare-healthcare, which has now become the biggest state-sector employer anywhere in the world since the collapse of Soviet Russia, with a workforce of 2 million, and waiting lists to match, and still we can't cure anyone... We should scrap the whole thing, remove it from the tax bill, and make insurance compulsory. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: ... | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 20:55:46 12/02/04 Thu On a more serious note: While socialism and Europeanism, in even the mildest of forms, is enough to induce gnashing of teeth and involuntary spasms within every sinew of my being, I have grave reservations about US style healthcare. While I do not dispute that the level of care and medical prowess in the US is greater, the fact remains that healthcare ceases to be an emergency service, like fire or police. I have grave reservations about the prospect of me being wheeled into a hospital on a trolley whilst being quizzed “what kinda insurance you got honey?” by some over-zealous administrator, during brief bouts of consciousness. I agree that the NHS should be reformed totally, to cut out the bulk of the expenses such as: More managers than patients. Subsidised drugs. Free surgery for the purposes of vanity. Free drugs for feckless wasters. Etc etc etc… [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: forgot the first bit... | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 20:57:34 12/02/04 Thu "Sassenachs are not bogeymen who lure children into their gingerbread houses and plot the exploitation of Scotland in leather armchairs whilst clutching globes of brandy in talon-like fingers" I was wondering if you lifted this from the SNP website? :-) [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: No, groundskeeper Willie from the Simpsons... | |
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Author: Ed Harris (Venezia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 21:09:52 12/02/04 Thu Although I see it in Eye-Tie not English... but I guess that the original would have been something like that. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Well.. | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 21:23:16 12/02/04 Thu He does serve as the inspiration behind much political thinking (or lack of) at Holyrood. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Are you crazy? | |
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Author: Nick (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 14:02:38 12/03/04 Fri If there's one thing that post-1945 Britain has done right it's create an NHS that could centrally purchase drugs and then pass them on for (in many cases) a fraction of their cost to patients who NEED them. I think being ill is one moment in anyone's life when the basic tenet of COMMUNISM (to each according to his need...) is EXACTLY RIGHT, and the US system is a DISASTER for people who require expensive or long-term drug care. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Perhaps, but sanity is a relative term. | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:48:15 12/03/04 Fri I agree with you in principle. However, in practice, things are different. My attack was on the current prescription fraud, rather than providing cheaper drugs to the long-term ill. The first part of the communist ethos (from each, according to their means) is not being practiced here. Why should I, for example, expect the state to provide subsidised hay-fever tablets all summer, when I can well afford them myself? We have an enormous problem in Britain with people who are addicted to prescription drugs. GPs are being inundated with habitual bogus patients who pester Doctors for repeat prescriptions of certain drugs. Some of these GPs routinely adhere to the requests, if only for an easy life. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I believe that you should recieve treatment because you are ill, not because you are rich. | |
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Author: Roberdin [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:43:59 12/03/04 Fri [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: right-wing socialist | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 22:35:03 12/02/04 Thu It seems I am once again alone in my views. I am socialist. A right-winger on almost any issue you care to name until you come to things like privatisation, National insurance and health care. Its my other views (which I consider to be more important than the NHS) that put me in the right-wing. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Ah, so a National Socialist, then? | |
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Author: Owain the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and possibly Seventh [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 22:46:56 12/02/04 Thu So what you're saying is that you simultaneously support a resurgence of nationalism (all across Europe, apparently - you quote a Hapsburg, who I'm sure would be all too happy to see a return to nostalgia for the old Austria) and the welfare state. And you're not crazy about those nasty foreigners. Where have I heard that one before? I wonder. Wait a second, wasn't that German bloke with the moustache a national socialist? What was his name again? Adolf something-or-other... [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I do sincerely hope that you are alone in your views | |
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Author: Ian (Australia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 01:18:54 12/03/04 Fri The mythical Owain of the increasingly large numbers has it right, as far as I can tell. We have seen the ideological combination you are talking about, and we fought a very, very nasty war to try and rid the world of it. I would, if necessary, be prepared to go to war myself should it become necessary to perform the job again. I must say, young man, that I get a distinct mental shudder when I read some of your comments. I find both of your terms – "right wing" and "socialist" – equally distressing. I find that simplistic divisions of complex issues into "left" and "right" are usually a sign of soft-headedness dressing itself up as willpower. I have no problem at all with being proud of one's own culture, but I can't see why it should ever descend to the hostile, bigoted, bone-headed flag-waving and name-calling of nationalism. I believe that you are playing a dangerous game, Owain, and I hope that you will grow out of it. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Owain.... | |
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Author: David (Australia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 13:26:21 12/03/04 Fri I agree with you, Ian. Owain's views seem to fit in rather disturbingly with a party known in Australia as the One Nation Party. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Wait a second | |
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Author: Steph (U.S.) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 04:50:09 12/03/04 Fri Just because Owain is patriotic and socialist that does not necessarily mean he is a fascist. There have been ok democratic socialists who were also nationalists. I mean as libertarian-liberal nationalist, they are not my favorite, but they are not all dictators in waiting. Unless he has been posting hyper nationalist – anti freedom drivel and I have missed it, let’s let him explain his beliefs a little before we jump all over him. Remember he is only 15. On the other hand Owain, Nationalism and Socialism are both potent forms of collectivism and mixing them together can give fairly nasty results. So please explain your views to the board so we can see where you are coming from and don’t have to feel we need to sleep with loaded guns by our beds. Of course as a good yank I do that anyway, but I like to think of it as participating in a long standing Anglo-American tradition of anti authoritarianism, not as a practical necessity. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: my views | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:35:11 12/03/04 Fri What follows is an outline of my views and beliefs. Socialism - Like most things should never be taken to the extreme. But I cant accept any form of laissez-faire system of things. Freedom is good, but that doesnt mean people should have the freedom to pay for there own health care. I am a great fan of the NHS and would hate to see it privatised. The welfare state is worth dying for. I am opposed to privatisation of public services, though I recognise the danger of allowing a governemnt to get its hands on every sector of the countries industry and infrastructure. Certainly I would like an end to privatised rail network. Nationalism - It would be nice to have a government that actualy loved the country dont you think? I love this country (Britain that is, just so were all clear what I belive my country to be) and would never accept any other nation as my own, I shall not adopt any other. How do I justify my nationalism? Do I really need to? I love my country. Britain made me and in return I shall love it and never abandon it. Differing views of what nationalism actualy is. If England football supporters wave the St George they are patriots, if Welsh supporters wave the Dragon, they are nationalists. I was always told that those Seperatists waving that flag were nationalists. It made sense to me then to call myself a nationalist when I was waving the union jack and saying how much I loved my country (Britain), doing no more than those Welsh "nationalists". Though to many this came accross as simple patriotism, just because I was waving a different flag. This is stupid. I am no more or less a patriot/nationalist/whatever than those seperatists, the difference is that I know what my counry really is. So whether I am a nationalist or a patriot is all down to perception, note that I have no sympathies for the BNP or the order of St George or the national front or any other similar organisations. Having both Socialist and Nationalist views does not make me a National-Socialist. I am just a proud Britain who likes to share. I am extreme in niether direction. My other prinicple views consider Unionism and Monarchism. I am British, thats all that matters. I love Britain and I love the Union. I am a monarchist because I ahve a deep respect for my countries traditions and form of Governmnt and also for purely ideological reasons. I genuinely belive that constitutional monarchy is the greatest form of government yet discovered, though I recognise not all nations would be suited to such a system. I do believe that ones patriotism and good character can be judged by their loyalty to there monarch. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: that should have read | |
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Author: Steph (U.S.) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 04:54:33 12/03/04 Fri I mean as a libertarian-liberal nationalist, they are not my favorite, but they are not all dictators in waiting. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Owain | |
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Author: Paddy (Scotland) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 08:30:18 12/03/04 Fri I suggest looking at: http://www.politicalcompass.org/ there is a test there that tells you where you lie on a revised political spectrum that does not look simply at "left" and "right", but also at "authoritarian" and "libertarian". [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Me | |
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Author: David (Australia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 13:22:41 12/03/04 Fri I don't think this is entirely accurate but I got: Economic Left/Right: 4.62 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.49 I consider myself to be fairly right wing on economic issues, but I have very mixed views on social policies. While I would generally consider myself liberal on most social isses, I am not quite sure I deserve a score of -5.49 perhaps it was simply that particular mix of questions. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: My results | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:58:30 12/03/04 Fri Me, I got pretty much what I expected. Economic Left/Right: -3.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.62 [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: politicalcompass | |
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Author: Ben.M(UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 09:16:16 12/03/04 Fri Obviously it isn't 100% accurate but I got Economic Left/Right: 0.38. Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.74. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: hmmm | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 10:20:40 12/03/04 Fri That can't be right! I was placed near Tony Blair and Gerhard Schroder on the graph. Then however, I realised that their compass positions were determined by their speeches, rather than their actions. I can sleep easy now... [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Political Compass | |
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Author: David (Australia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 13:41:55 12/03/04 Fri Dave, I can assure you based on my readings of your posts you are nothing but a solid Tory. I couldn't see a large amount of agreement between you and Blair/Schroder on many issues at all. I think it is difficult to take a one-size-fits-all approach to this sort of thing. For example if you included Australian questions such as on the Monarchy, aussie flag, British Empire/Commonwealth, Knighthoods, oath etc. I would clearly be seen as a tory, however with the political compass questions I appear to be very much a liberal. One thing is for sure though, I am definantly NOT a socialist/Labour supporter! [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I got.......... | |
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Author: Ian (Australia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 11:18:40 12/03/04 Fri Economic Left/Right: -1.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.90 That is, two squares to the left and four squares towards libertarian. Some of the questions obviously refer to specific national contexts, though, like the one about civil liberties and terrorism. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I'm afraid that you'll find the majority of today's (British) youth stands with me and Owain | |
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Author: Roberdin [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:51:03 12/03/04 Fri Most people that I talk to (those who are British, at least) are usually pro flag-waving and pro-welfare state. I fail to see why this makes us 'facist'... no-one is proposing that we are superior to other races and have a destiny to capture all of the world or anything - we believe that all are equal, but when in Rome (that is, Britain), do as Romans (Britions) do (wave the flag). [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Its "Owain and I". Come on now. lol. Just kidding | |
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Author: Kevin (U.S.) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:39:23 12/03/04 Fri [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Not exactly... | |
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Author: Roberdin [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 19:07:52 12/03/04 Fri No, it's "Owain and me", because if it was 'I', then "Today's youth stands with I" would also be correct - the sentence must make sense with the and clause removed - and it is not, AFAIK... [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: indeed roberdin | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:38:06 12/03/04 Fri Indeed Roberdin. I am very hopeful about the future and the role todyas youth will play in it. I am thankful I wasnt born 30 years earlier as my life would probably have been one of frustration and anger. As it is I believe we will soon be able to get Britain back on track and end the leftist disaster story of the twentieth century. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: You are probably not fascists, but… | |
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Author: Steph (U.S.) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 20:22:12 12/03/04 Fri Some people get very worried about this because strictly speaking fascism is a form of socialism. What Ludwig von Mises called socialism of the German pattern. It differed from orthodox Marxist socialism or orthodox democratic socialism in that it called not for state ownership of the means of production, but rather state control of the means of production. While democratic socialism was an out growth of Marxism that developed in the 1890s when many Marxists realized that in democratic capitalist societies, the working class has no revolutionary potential, in as far as their standard of living tends to increase. Fascism on the other hand is a development of the German welfare state. Modern democratic socialism like Blair’s Labour Party are in fact mildly fascist in as far as they have renounced the goal of state ownership of the means of production and substituted the idea of state regulation and welfare. However, most democratic socialist parties, have maintained the internationalist bent that is a legacy of Marx’s idea of the international working class and are of course democratic. Orthodox fascism will exhibit the following symptoms: revolutionary violence (aimed against real enemies of the fascist state such as labor unionists, democrats and capitalists; against competing forms of socialism e.g. social democrats and communists; and against scapegoats such as jews, gypsies, etc.), extreme nationalism, antipathy to liberal ideas (representative democracy, capitalism, individual rights etc.), state control of the means of production, and a robust welfare state. Now of course not all fascist states or movements have all of these characteristics. Notably most did not carry revolutionary violence to the extreme seen in Nazi Germany. Argentina for example while fascist was not as revolutionary as Germany. The more of the above traits a person or movement has the more fascist it is. That is not to say that the two of you are fascists, in fact, if you are against increases in state power by the current labour government then you are of course less fascist than them. There is nothing wrong with patriotism, pride in your country for its long history of democracy, individual rights, and industrial achievement and a desire to defend it. But people do get leery when they here nationalist and socialist together, now I hope you understand why. B.T.W. As a libertarian, I must ask why in the name of god are you in favor of the welfare state? Cheers, Steph [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |