Well at least we agree on something -- Back Talk

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Subject: Well at least we agree on something

Author:
Mark7

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Date Posted: 20:05:10 10/02/01 Tue
In reply to: Joanne 's message, "Re: How about Saudi Arabia?" on 16:26:45 10/02/01 Tue

I want a consistent policy on human rights. I want an international tribunal on human rights. I want enforcement, and I want the tribunal de-policizised.

I don't wan't to know if it's right wing, left wing, pro-Jewish, anti-Jewish.

I want the same standards applied to military as civilians.

Torture by secret services is terror. Assassinations by the military or secret services is terror.

Condoning these things on the part of militaries is terror.

Unless we can force our goverenments to act in a responsible fashion, killing Osama will do to terrorism what killing Pablo Escobar did to the drug trafic.

As for Israel and Palestine, I could see a very simple solution.

Israel needs to withdraw all settlements from Gaza and the West Bank. It also needs to withdraw from the Golan heights.

The US can then guarantee it's borders and would formaly sign an alliance treaty with Israel, where any attack on Israel by a foreign governemnt is an attack on the US.

As for Jerusalem, eithere there will be a partition, or Israel needs to anex the territory and give citizenship to all it's inhabitants ASAP.

You cannot keep generation after generation as a non-person in the place of their birth.

But I also believe that if Israel refuses to withdraw it's troops according to the Oslo agreement, we should stop any military or economic aid to Israel (and by the way to Egipt as well).

Of course that will not happen. Our politicians are bribed by a corrupt political electoral process, where both parties are held hostage to Jewish American lobbies that have the interests of Israel ahead of the interests of the USA.

Too bad.

As for the Arab nations, you can't improve the situation of women in Afganistan by an alliance with Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are not democracies, they are not free, and they have nothing of our values. Nor does Pakistan.

Helping those thugs will only create problems.

During the Golf war the bastards in Saudi Arabia required that women in the US army cannot leave the military barracks without a "male" escort.

So while the Kuwaiti men were partying in Cairo or Europe, the American women were fighting for their country and couldn't even walk the streets in Saudi Arabia.

Is this how we go about insuring equal rights?

I don't think so.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: quite honestly I'm not sure what we're disagreeing about

Author:
Joanne
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Date Posted: 15:48:07 10/03/01 Wed

I asked you a couple questions which you didn't answer and agreed with you on an obvious point.

I can't see in terms of black and white here. I think the issues are way, way deeper than that. Except for, of course, that NO ONE DESERVED to die that way, on 9/11. Everyone is scared. NYC is in shambles because of some sick religious freaks backed by money and lunacy. They came out of nowhere and then ran and hid. They are living here, pretending to be normal, planning their next strike. It is WRONG, what they are doing. No matter how you look at it, no matter what came before, it's just wrong.

Did you read that article on DP posted by Glenn in that thread "Dominator Societies"?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Sure is wrong

Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 21:20:32 10/05/01 Fri

I never said what they do is right, nor do I say that what Israel or the US is doing in the Middle East is in anyway justifying their attack.

All I am saying is that military power alone cannot, will not and never did prevent terror.

The only way to prevent terrorists is to insure an admosphere of justice and fairness for all.

Muslims, Arabs, are not as different from us that you may think. If they have something to live for, they wouldn't take suicide so lightly.

All I am saying is that as long as there is a substantially large population that has no possibility to better itself, there will be a large supply of angry young men who cannot value their own life and therefore cannot value anybody elses life.

And we are seeing the 3rd generation of Arabs growing in Palestinian refugee camps.

Their grandfathers lost the wars with Israel in 1947, 1963, or 1967, and the grandsons are still held prisoners of war, in 2001.

These men have nothing to look forward to in their lives, so their lives have no values. Can anybody expect someone who doesn't value his own life to value the life of another?

Also, I disagree with Bush and most of my compatriots on the issue of "they declared war on America".

America declared war on Palestine 50 years ago. And we won most of the battles also. Except this last one.

We say that any government who aids the terrorists is an enemy to declare war on.

Well, I have news for you. We aided the killers of their children for many years. In case you haven't followed the news, just in the last months over 100 Palestian children were shot by the Israeli army. Guess who aided this army? Guess who financed it, who trained it, who armed it?

We declared war on them long time ago, and I believe it is time to stop. How you stop it? You cut the aid to all in the region, starting with Israel and ending with Egipt.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Mark,

Author:
Joanne
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Date Posted: 16:16:31 10/07/01 Sun

Mark, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts on this board. My prior knowledge of all these events was very sketchy. I'm playing catch-up now, trying to figure things out. Reading your exchanges with JeffF and all the different viewpoints on DP and elsewhere, is an awesome opportunity to learn about world events, from so many different perspectives.

I understand that you feel empathy for the Palestines and others with no country, because you were a refugee. You should let down your guard more often, and let your human side show through. That explains a lot about why you feel as strongly as you do not just about Arabs, but the US involvement in places and ways which are perhaps not honourable and do not reflect what American values stand for. However, America has done so much good in the world too, they are not just power-hungry evil monsters like some would like to have everyone believe.

And do you notice the change in tone on DP regarding the reasons why America was attacked? People ARE starting to think things through, and not just go with the knee-jerk reaction of 'they hate our freedoms.' You can see it for yourself. Your views are perhaps not so different from even the 'hawks' on the board.

And I know that people everywhere are not so different than me, which is why it is so hideously frightening when some do things like fly airplanes into buildings on a beautiful peaceful morning, and push their religious beliefs as justification for war - it really illustrates the differences between "them" and "us", and that is scary to me. To me, it seems like not only are they angry about troops in Saudi and the whole thing about Isreal, but that they are using their collective anger to martyr themselves and achieve eternal paradise - they are exploiting Islam and Muslims, and definitely bastardizing their religion. Bin Laden himself has never wanted for anything - he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, and I think his agenda is strictly his own, and not so much doing Allah's will, as he says he is doing.

So I guess I'm still troubled the most about Israel and the Palenstines. If the US was to cut support to Israel, I hate to think what would happen. Would they be able to keep their nation? How can America just abandon them? It just doesn't seem right. Do you think that a Palestine state could be created to the satisfaction of all, or do the Palestines definitely want what they had some three or four generations ago. Is there a peaceful solution, so you think?

You liked the sex-change bin Laden idea? It wasn't my idea, I got it in my email, but it would be so just, wouldn't it? I thought it was pretty good too. :-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Is there a peaceful solution?

Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 21:34:02 10/07/01 Sun

I wish I could say yes, but in honesty I do have doubts. I don't think the leadership of either Palestine or Israel has the stamina, the guts, to tell their own people to rid of their own guilt.

I'm not sure about us either. GW Bush has made it plainly clear:

"You are either with us, or against us". There is no place of neutrality. He is talking about a war on terrorism, while in truth the only terrorism he wants to fight is a Muslim fundamentalist terrorism.

First I doubt we can win. Stop your anger for a second and consider this for a moment. If we kill Bin Laden, he will became a martyr, and a rallying point for all radicals. If we don't kill him, we appear weak to our enemies.

In order to find a peaceful solution, you need people in the middle, people without an "allegiance". Only those people can talk with both sides and open communications.

How can you, or any reporter, in today's American media open a story about a Jewish 31 year old settler, who killed a 12 year old Palestinian boy by hitting him in the face repeatedly with the but of his rifle, to be acquited by an Israeli jurry (he got 6 monts probation)?

And how can you expect that his parents, brothers and friends will not seek the punishment, legal or not of this animal who claims to do Yehova's good work and has Israel agreeing with him?

You try it. Raise the issue of human rights on DP and watch how everybody will call you un-American, friend of terrorists and so on.

GW Bush has the stomach to send American troops to fight a war outside the country, a thing he, just like Clinton never had to do. He has the courage to tell the world that "you are either with us, or against us".

But has he the courage to tell Jewish lobbies in the US that Palestinians have the right to a country of their own where they are citizens with full rights? Does GW Bush have the courage to tell Sharon he needs to face international tribunal to clear his role on the massacres of Palestinian women and children in Lebnon?

I doubt it.

I doubt Shamir or Sharon have the guts to tell settlers they need to move out, or accept living under Palestinian rule, and I doubt Arafat has the guts to tell Bush and Sharon that he doesn't have to power and the clout to stop his people from making war, if the peace is unacceptable.

History has taught us that usually genocide follows these type of situations where culture clashes are too great and dialogue is imposible.

Remember "A good Indian is a dead indian". Our settler managed to kill all the bad Indians from America.

My feeling is that in the US of A as well as in Israel's political classes there is forging a desire to rid Palestine of Palestinians by force.

This scenario would have consequences on our country as well. We will lose some of our freedoms, because you cannot commit genocide in plain view of the public.

You need to shut up opposition, strangle freedom of speach and ally yourself with goons.

We are doing all of these.

I hope I am wrong.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: By the way
Author: Mark7 [ Edit \| View ]	Date Posted: 21:25:21 10/05/01 Fri Your idea about returning Bin Laden to Afganistan as a woman is genial. Much better than making an Islamic martyr out of him. Bush should really think about it.