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Subject: Re: What you said Author: Forest [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 08:13:12 07/19/01 Thu In reply to: JeffF 's message, "What I said" on 08:06:01 07/19/01 Thu belief in something higher than man. . . well what about the belief that man isn't as high as most religions make him out to be? Its kind of the same thing only turned around. YOu don't have to believe there is something greater you can believe that humans are lesser. . . does that make sense? For example: we aren't in God's image, we are only animals, we are born, we live and we die. That is the basis of a certain humility and yes a morality that one could argue is much less egotistical and less damaging. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> [> Subject: Egos Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:38:17 07/19/01 Thu "Well what about the belief that man isn't as high as most religions make him out to be." Why is man made out to be high? Because he is "exalted over the animals?"(note - I'm not saying he is or he isn't. I'm quoting to see if that's what you mean") "You don't have to believe there is something greater you can believe that humans are lesser" I'm a litle confused. If there's nothing greater, what's man lesser than? Also, why would he think so? If there's nothing greater than man, why wouldn't man think he was the greatest thing in the world? "we aren't in God's image." Ok, if there is no God, then this is obvious. "we are only animals" You mean no greater than the turtle or the wolf or the crab? "We live and we die" True enough whether we believe in God or not, unless you're talking about questions of the afterlife. "That is the basis of a certain humility" This is the part I'm not totally following. If there's nothing greater than man, what is the basis of humility? The belief that man is just one animal among many, no better or worse? BTW - IS there any equivalent over here to the "reply with quote" on the hearth boards?

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Egos Author: Forest [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:27:44 07/19/01 Thu -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Well what about the belief that man isn't as high as most religions make him out to be." Why is man made out to be high? Because he is "exalted over the animals?"(note - I'm not saying he is or he isn't. I'm quoting to see if that's what you mean") MOST RELIGIONS (HECK EVEN SOME SCIENTISTS) MAKE HUMANS OUT TO BE SOMETHING SPECIAL. I DON'T KNOW WHAT EXALTED MEANS: BETTER DIFFERENT SPECIAL. . . "You don't have to believe there is something greater you can believe that humans are lesser" I'm a litle confused. If there's nothing greater, what's man lesser than? ONE DOESN'T NEED A GREATER BEING TO BELIEVE IN, IN ORDER TO BELIEVE THAT HUMANS ARE NOT AS SPECIAL AS WE THINK WE ARE. If there's nothing greater than man, why wouldn't man think he was the greatest thing in the world? THAT DOES NOT IMPLY THE CONVERSE (?) THAT THERE'S NOTHING LESSER THAN MAN. WHICH IS WHAT I'M TRYING TO ARGUE. "we aren't in God's image." Ok, if there is no God, then this is obvious. "we are only animals" You mean no greater than the turtle or the wolf or the crab? CORRECT. "We live and we die" True enough whether we believe in God or not, unless you're talking about questions of the afterlife. CORRECT. i'M TRYING TO PROVIDE THE ATHEIST VIEWPOINT OF BEING "That is the basis of a certain humility" This is the part I'm not totally following. If there's nothing greater than man, what is the basis of humility? The belief that man is just one animal among many, no better or worse? CORRECT. AND i WOULD SAY THAT BELIEF IN A HIGHER POWER OR BEING DOES NOT NECESSITATE THE EXISTENCE OF MORALITY ALTHOUGH IT CAN BE A SOURCE OF INSPIRATION FOR THOSE SEEKING TO BE MORAL. I'M ARGUING THAT THE SOURCE OF MORALITY IS NOT SIMPLY IN THE BELIEF IN A HIGHER BEING BUT THE SOURCE COMES FROM OUR CAPACITY TO SYMPATHISE, EMPATHISE AND FEEL HUMILITY. A VARIETY OF SOURCES OF KNOWING, BELIEVING AND BEING CAN PROVIDE THE INSPIRATION FOR MORALITY. BUT FUNDAMENTALLY MORALITY IS A REFERENCE TO NOT CUTTING ONE ANOTHER'S THROATS. SEE MY POST TO MARK BELOW. SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS BUT IT SEEMED LIKE THIS MIGHT BE THE EASIEST WAY TO REPLY TO YOUR QUOTES. HAVE i DONE A BETTER JOB OF EXPLAINING MYSELF? I;LL THINK ABOUT THIS SOME M0RE AND SEE IF I CAN DO IT BETTER. . .

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Yes Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:32:59 07/19/01 Thu Yes, that was much clearer and you can see that I had figured out a good part of where you were going. Certainly I concede that belief in a higher power does not in any sense by itself lead to morality. Hell,ancient religions believed in gods of war which didn't exactly lead to kindness to your neighbor. :-) I'm also willing to concede that man might not necessarily be superior to the cardinal, the cat or the turtle, but I draw the line at pit bulls, roaches and mice, all of which man is surely superior to.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: lol Author: Forest [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:24:51 07/19/01 Thu Another rephrasing just because I need the practice: just because there is no one better than you, does not mean that you are better than everyone else. . .you, me, man, woman, humans, other animals. . .

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: What about? Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:28:58 07/20/01 Fri Plants, flowers and trees? How far do you want to take this idea? Do you think it's possible that man is no better than the cactus?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: better? or Author: Forest [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:38:41 07/20/01 Fri different? Here's something I JUSt came across in my reading last night and it is SO on point!: "The Catholic Church. . . saw the universe as vertically arranged bvetween heaven and earth. From this perspective, it made sense to speak of "higher" and "lower" forms of life, with humans being closest to the deity. Via philosophy, this way of thinking permeated all of the social sicences and humanities, where it still lingers, even though biology has made it absolutely clear that the idea of a linear progression among life forms is mistaken. Every organism fits on the phylogenetic tree without being above or below anything else. Biologists make distinctions betweeen organisms that do well or are extinct, that are specialized or generalized, or that multiply slowly or rapidly, but they never look at one organism as a model that others strive for or that is inherently superior." from The Ape and The Sushi Master, by Frans DeWaal pp.81-82,

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: But wouldn't it suck if this were so? Author: Melody [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:33:35 07/19/01 Thu Just another being..No greater, no better or worse than any other animal...Just another animal on the food chain.... I choose to believe in God and Jesus...I want to believe, therefore, I do....

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: not necessarily Author: Forest [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:31:37 07/20/01 Fri Because your description (another on the food chain) leaves out how wonderful all of creation is. Remember that better and worse are value judgments, and how one assigns the value judgment is different from an understanding of how we are different from other animals. All of God's creation is wonderous. I think one can believe in God and Jesus and also retain a certain humility about humanity and its place in that creation. (we've had in depth discussions on IS about evolution and I very much believe that evolution is the most likely tool that God used to make this "creation." But I won't repeat all of that here.) just my thoughts. maybe none too coherent on this friday afternoon. . .

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: God's creations are not equal Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:17:12 07/20/01 Fri How many times do I hear on TV about how people are intruding into the Rhino, the Lion, the Leopard, the Tiger's land, and how it's only their fault if they get killed or maimed. Funny none of these people had to go drink water from a river where they may be snatched by a crock. And I love the one about the Shark: The Shark really doesn't like eating people, he likes seals. The only time a Shark eats humans is when it confuses them with Seals. I bet it would make a surfer feel a lot better in the Shark's belly, knowing the Shark didn't fully enjoy the meal. In all honesty, I believe the life of a mountain gorrilla is worth much more in wester eyes, than the lives of hundreds of Africans living close to it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: well yah of course Author: Forest [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:49:31 07/22/01 Sun why should anyone care about the poor and undertrodden of any nation? The mere fact that they are poor is evidence of their sin and ungodliness. All they have to do to re-achieve a state of grace is to work hard, produce and acquire things.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Supply and Demand Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:17:29 07/22/01 Sun The supply of poor Africans far exceeds the supply of mountain gorrillas, leopards, lions and tigers. That's another funny controversy. If I remember correctly, in the New Testament there is a referrence by Jesus, where Jesus says in essence that it is impossible for rich people to get into heaven. Are we Americans doomed to Hell?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: yep Author: Forest [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:15:52 07/22/01 Sun according to the author of that portion of the New Testament we are. Time to move to a different country Huh? maybe we should all immigrate to africa?