VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, [10] ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: Wed, Feb 15, 04:52:57pm CST
Author: Rex
Author Host/IP: cache-rtc-ad03.proxy.aol.com / 152.163.100.197
Subject: Re: Leopards and other breeds for gray fox
In reply to: Gray Fox 's message, "Leopards and other breeds for gray fox" on Wed, Feb 15, 04:20:49pm CST

>I have been following this thread with great interest
>checking in on it nearly every day, but haven't
>responded due to the lack of time taking care of my
>wife 24-7. By the way, she seems to have improved some
>after 2 treatments of chemo. Praise God! Thanks to all
>who are praying for her!
>Please understand that all of us will never completely
>agree on everything and that is OK. We all have our
>preferences. So what? What I have to say is not to
>downgrade anyone nor is anything stated in anger. I
>have enjoyed reading what some of you think and hope
>that you will enjoy what I write.
>
>I started treeing foxes (grays of course) in the
>mid-fifties. I have treed over two hundred in a year
>at several different periods of my life. I used to do
>more fox hunting than anything else except during bear
>season. Bears are and always have been my preferred
>game. Even today, I usually tree anywhere from 30-60
>foxes every year and they are NOT as common as they
>once were and I am not near as young either! Heh! Heh!
>I have trained several different breeds of dogs and
>crosses that would catch a fox. Understand though,
>that there are dogs that tree foxes and then there are
>the real fox dogs. I do know the difference.
>I am much amused by some statements I have heard more
>than one coonhunter make over the years about "having
>treed a fox while out coonhunting", as if that proves
>that they are easily caught. Yeah, right!?? You can
>have a popup on any game. There are also the layups to
>consider. Treeing either doesn't qualify a dog as a
>fox dog. I have treed bears, lions, bobcats and even
>gray fox in a matter of minutes. It happens on any
>game on occasion.
>Rex, I agree with you up to a point on a lot of what
>you wrote, but would not ever pick a July for a gray
>fox dog for several reasons. Maybe I just haven't seen
>the right ones, but I have seen and hunted with about
>200 I believe. I have owned numerous July dogs over
>the years and some made passable dogs, but not even
>one was a top fox dog. Some were pretty good on bear
>and some were pretty good cat dogs, but not even one
>made a real fox dog.(When I say fox I mean gray fox. I
>break my dogs off red fox and coyotes. Running
>non-treeing game is completely different.)
>I owned and hunted mostly Triggs for a period of 16
>years. I have owned several top fox dogs that were
>Trigg or mostly Trigg. I would rank the Triggs ahead
>of the July by quite a margin, but... Both the Trigg
>and especially the July lack the toughness to get the
>job done day after day. Most of them are once or twice
>a week dogs. They can't take hard running every day.
>Neither breed has real good feet. Part of having tough
>feet is a mattter of judicious hunting and toughening
>gradually, but neither the Trigg nor the July has good
>enough feet to continually run on the lava rock around
>here. One race that goes into the lavas will lame them
>up for 2-3 weeks even after you have them in
>condition.
>There are some running dogs that can tree foxes and
>are tougher. In my experience the Goodmans, Croghans
>and some strains of Walkers can. (I have seen some
>Running Walkers that had very soft,poor feet too, as
>well as some of all breeds.) These also often do well
>on bear too, and are very gritty in general, with the
>exception of many Running Walkers. However, Goodmans,
>Croghans, Triggs, Julys, and Running Walkers tend to
>be real fussy/growly in the box. I haven't seen many
>problems under the tree however. They seem to be tuned
>into the game enough to ignore each other, in general
>under the tree.
>I never did like the semi-silent nature of the Triggs
>and to a lesser degree the July dogs. I am very well
>aware that any semi-silent or silent trailing dog of
>equal ability as an open dog WILL catch a given fox or
>cat in considerably less time. That is of no
>consequence to me.
>
>Now to the main point you made Rex...You think that
>there are very few Leopards that will make gray fox
>dogs. I have to agree with what you said, but not
>necessarily with what you imply. OK..Most Leopards are
>not fox dogs. That is a true statement, but...How many
>Leopards are ever really hunted on gray fox? Not many,
>and that is a lead pipe cinch. I would guess that less
>than 2% of all Leopards are ever hunted on gray fox.
>Of those practically none, including most of those I
>have owned and trained in the past 10 years or so have
>been hunted properly to make a real fox dog. Prior to
>the last ten years, I did start most of mine on gray
>fox. It just isn't as easy to do anymore.
>I have yet to see a really top fox dog that wasn't
>started on fox or at least trained on fox concurrently
>with other game for at least a year or so. Very often
>I start and train my Leopards on bear and that sort of
>dog will maybe tree a few foxes later if run on fox,
>but will NEVER make a REAL fox dog. Dogs trained on
>bear will overrun the track and make way too many
>loses. A lot of how I train mine depends on when they
>reach huntable age and the numbers of available foxes!
>Too often I don't get to start dogs on fox, which
>makes a better dog on all game. A dog that can trail a
>gray fox can trail anything.
>So, Rex...Have you ever run a Leopard on fox only
>until it was pretty much trained? There are Leopards
>that will make top fox dogs, if hunted that way.
>(Understand that running dogs won't make great fox
>dogs either unless their initial training is on fox.)
>I presently own two Leopards that are real fox dogs. I
>have four others that will tree some foxes, but they
>aren't "foxdogs". The main criterion for staying in my
>pack has to do with being a bear dog, but I surely do
>enjoy fox hunting! Speed is not the big issue with
>treeing gray foxes. Running a track steadily without
>making a lot of loses and continually "jerking the
>slack out of the track" will tree the fox.
>As a breed, I would choose the Leopard even if I just
>wanted to cat and fox hunt. They are tougher, have
>better feet and are so much more fun to hunt, mainly
>because they are so much more obedient. They also take
>the cold better than any breed I have ever been
>around. Besides that, you can hunt them hard every day
>and they are like the "Energizer Bunny"...they just
>keep going and going!! I also prefer open trailing.
>The American Leopard Cur, as Perry noted, is
>intelligent enough to be successful at many things if
>properly trained. As for me I will continue to hunt
>Leopards, because they suit me best.
>Randy
Randy, I'm glad to hear your wife is doing better. We HAVE been praying, and in earnest. We have a small prayer group at Church that truly pray and God answers! Iam sure we are in agreement in our faith.
Now, as always , you have to dissagree with me on most things, I have come to expect that. I will make only a few points. I feel qualified to comment on Leopards, even yours, as I owned and hunted with most of their ancestors. I recall telling you, when you started breeding theses dogs dogs for bear, that after breeding your own for a few generations, selectively, you could probably improve them on bear. That is same thing I said, for gray fox. Next, Everyone knows gray fox tree much more, out there. And as for the strain of Julys I referred to, they have been bred for many generations specifacally for gray fox, here, in dense brush. You have NEVER seen or hunted with them. how can you know how they hold up?? I will not debate this with you, any further. As for dogs, I no longer hunt much, I took up fishing, for my Savior! Rex

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.