First of all, thanks to both you and Rollaine for responding! Of course, I went long--> -- LJG Discussion board

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Date Posted: 13:31:15 02/04/08 Mon
Author: Oleander
Subject: First of all, thanks to both you and Rollaine for responding! Of course, I went long-->
In reply to: susiej 's message, "I will say though I am not a "John hater" I don't quite see all his actions in the noble light that so many of you do, and this is the perfect example. I don't see raising Willie as a great sacrifice and upheaval-its actually, as i've said before, Isobel who sacrifices all chance to be loved or have a spouse who actually desires her without even being able to make that choice openly. As for John, this was a golden opportuntiy- how else could he ever have a son by the man he loved- it aint possible any other way. Think of Claire- how did she survive without Jamie all those years- by having his child to love- that's what John gets here. And in this day and age of arranged marriages- he can be absent as much as he wants- like when he goes to Jamaica and she doesn't." on 13:02:30 02/04/08 Mon

I hope my post didn't come off as rude as I think it did. I was feeling kind of like I needed to throw up but wanted to finish the post. Anyway, I see what you are all saying, but wanted to add my thoughts RE: Isobel. In that day and age, women didn't expect to marry for love or even for physical compatability. I don't necessarily agree that she made a large sacrifice. To me, sacrifice entails knowing what you are giving up, along with the expectation that it is acheiveable. And while a girl (or woman) in those days might hope to make a marriage from love, would she expect it? Of course, having Isobel find her soul mate would have been preferable- but by the time she married John, I think she would have been considered well past marrigiable age (or did I make that up?) anyway. As far as John is concerned, I believe that he does think he will make a suitable husband, and did. We'll have to wait to see what his motivations are, however.

And I agree- I don't think that John gave up his life to be Willie's father because it was the most noble thing he could do. But I do think that he did it out of love for Jaime, and that he came to love Willie as his own.. I've never seen John's actions as selfless, but I have spoken to manywomen who distrust John's motives, as if he might have a secret perverted agenda regarding Willie which I completely disagree with. I think that Diana created John as a dynamic and complex man, loyal and capable of great love, but also conflicted. DG has been the first to show us that human emotions and relationships are rarely simple, and that human motivation is rarely simple.

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No, your post was not at all rude! I do hope you are feeling OK?? It wasn't our responses that did it-was it?? I never felt that John had perverted intentions of any sort towards Willie-never even gave it thought. But I agree with you an susiej, it was not selfless and he did it out of his love for Jamie. Me, I know that I would be jealous of anyone who I know was so in love with my DH. I find it odd that people would not understand Claire's jealousy-even if there is no chance of any relationship. But Jamie & John are friends and do share a specail bond through Willie. I would find it quite disconcerting to have this person in his life and raising his child. A son no less, in a time when I think we can agree more value was placed on sons. I always thought that got under Claire's skin a bit. But, that could be me projecting my own feelings again. I have a nasty habit of doing that! (NT) -- Rollaine, 13:47:06 02/04/08 Mon
- Well, I think we all do that to some degree- bring our own experiences/feelings to our reading and that's why we are such devoted readers, we get into it. That's why I obsess over Isobel so much more than everyone else. I have a friend who was married to a man for 16 years who after their second child basically stopped having sex with her- it happened once a year. He won't admit it but she now believes he's gay. Well, those years were very hard on her- she tried everything and ended up thinking it was her- she was so skinny, had gotten braces, plastic surgery- and she was very pretty to begin with. I thought of her and cringed when John told Jamie he "could do the deed." I had always liked John and I still do but that irked me. It just didn't seem fair to her. Not that we're always fair, but I don't see this action as somehow great and noble. Running out with his sword to protect Claire- that almost evened the score. *g* (NT) -- susiej (), 14:49:39 02/04/08 Mon
  - Yes, I agree about John. I, too, always felt bad for Isobel. Kind of wondered what her story was. We really don't know do we? Unless you all have some insights on her from the LJ series (I have not read it). We don't see her side nor hear too much about or from her. Like your friend, I get the same feeling from Frank. I kind of cringe whenever I hear how honorable and great he is. My parents marriage ended due to my father's infidelity-it devasted her. My experience does not allow me to see Frank as a great guy. So yes, we do bring our own experiences to our reading and can feel things differently than what the author may intend. (NT) -- Rollaine, 16:08:52 02/04/08 Mon
  - OK...I know this must sound awful, but please remind about the sword episode?? I don't re-read the books like you all do (yes, I know I should hang my head in shame :-), wish I had more time), but I really don't remember this! Thanks! (NT) -- Rollaine, 18:41:18 02/04/08 Mon
    - he's recovering from measles- a very dangerous disease in that time- and the big old German guy who scalped the Indian women comes to the house as Claire steps outside. John rushes out with his sword though he can barely stand. And then he speaks German so that the two of them can communicate and he tells Claire what the guy says. (NT) -- susiej, 07:45:10 02/05/08 Tue
      - OK, I remember now. I thought he grabbed a pistol...or maybe Claire grabbed the pistol? Neverless, I do recall it now. Thanks! (NT) -- Rollaine, 09:48:47 02/05/08 Tue

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