Create a New Forum Admin Login Member Login Contribute to Voyager Search VoyForums Help Desk VoyForums Exchange VoyForums Directory/Categories VoyForums Homepage VoyForums News FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions

[ Show ]

Support VoyForums

[ Shrink ]

VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

Monday, April 20, 3:33:31

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, [5], 6, 7, 8 ]

• Poor, foolish Percy. As much as John cares for him, Percy is not a true member of any brotherhood. No longer an honorable step-brother for John and Hal, and not as an honorable officer. John shows enormous restraint in this scene despite his outburst, confirming that he and Percy are truly worlds apart now. (NT) -- teddie, 05:10:54 10/18/07 Thu
  • Yes, yes, teddie, that's exactly what I was thinking, and why I included this quote! There's a moment shortly before the betrayal, when Percy is trying to compliment John on his bravery under fire, and John is just embarrassed, alarmed at his own continuing attraction to this man who, he now realizes, doesn't "perceive the essential truth of the matter ... it was his duty." (p. 320). So, ironically, the principal love interest in the book, and "new brother by marriage", is the one man with whom Grey cannot share an authentic sense of brotherhood. Even in terms of the underground "brotherhood" of homosexuals, Percy fails him, by bringing the betryal "home"; indeed seeming to ask to be discovered. (NT) -- pamelalass, 05:47:57 10/18/07 Thu
  
  

  ---

  
  
• Slap the bitch! I know Percy gave his excuses but he could have put Weber off if he wanted too. Besides, Weber knew the area better than Percy, why go to John's quarters unless hoping to get caught? Ass. He threw it all away. (NT) -- kgp, 05:18:51 10/18/07 Thu
  • That is exactly what John asked him. Percy was too weak and too accustomed to giving himself away, not that this excuses Percy in any way. You are right, kgp. He does throw it all away, family included, which may be the worst aspect of his loss. (NT) -- teddie, 05:22:44 10/18/07 Thu
  • Percy is weak, and I don't have any patience for him, either. But I do wonder why it seems that Grey is so alone - - are there no other men who prefer men who are also equal to him in strength, honor, courage, etc? So far he has a string of love affairs that have ended badly; his lovers are either weak, or dead. I know we've talked about Stephan as a possible soul mate, but is it possible that part of the Grey "mystique" is his alone-ness? And if there is an unpleasant subtext in the fact that Grey is not granted a worthy love interest and a "forever love", should we chalk it up to the historical circumstances facing a homosexual man in the 18th century? But why does he have to pine so for a heterosexual man he can never have? (NT) -- pamelalass, 06:02:30 10/18/07 Thu
    • Is he not finding a "forever" love because of his orientation or because he has a military - style life where he is on campaign through the warmer months and in training and camp throughout the winter months. Once the regiment gets their marching orders he barely has time for Percy anyway, he has 90 seconds before falling asleep in which ti deal with any passing thoughts of him he may have time for. Does he pine for Jamie or the notion of Jamie? He knows Jamie through Ardsmuir but how unguarded were those conversation really? They discussed books and played chess, discussed military campaigns - I think John is in love with the idea of having that relationship plus the physical pleasures but it also indicates that he values the intellectual closeness more than the physical closeness. Maybe that's why he never feels closer to Isobel than a brother or family friend, she couldn't meet him on an intellectual level. Had she been able to they might have been happier. (NT) -- kgp, 09:48:04 10/18/07 Thu
      • Wow, you've got a lot of interesting things here! I so agree that John needs the intellectual along with the physical, and that he and Jamie "clicked" as intellectual friends and equals, and maybe the notion of there being something more ends up being just that, a notion. But certainly even in this book, where they are so at odds, he continues to fixate on Jamie's specific physical presence - - details of his appearance, tone of voice, even his sleeping quarters! So it does feel to me as if there's a subtext that suggests the only person who could truly be everything John needs is a larger-than-life, romantic, virile - - and heterosexual - - hero. I like your thought about Isobel, too. Too bad she wouldn't have had access to the same kind of education, if not to the other experiences that shaped John's intellect. (NT) -- pamelalass, 11:13:57 10/18/07 Thu
        • "he continues to fixate on Jamie's specific physical presence " Don't we all???? I wonder of part of it for John at least is the mystery of Jamie. Who is this man, really? What is it about him beyond just physical presence (NT) -- kgp, 11:52:30 10/18/07 Thu
          • I have to say, I see John's love for Jaime as a combination of unrequited love and infatuation. What I mean is, it is so much easier to love some one from afar when you aren't *really* their lover. You can fixate on the tiny details, love all the little insignificant pieces of them, but still never *know* them the way a spouse or lover will. Unrequited love and infatuation can become so much bigger than yourself in a situation like this. Because there is no return or hope of return of affection, Johns feelings are like that dragon fly in amber, frozen in time with no forward motion or growth. (NT) -- Oleander, 12:37:02 10/18/07 Thu
            • Oleander - this is what I've been saying for years - that John can and will NEVER know Jamie the way Claire does. It is impossible. (NT) -- GwenM, 15:27:03 10/18/07 Thu
              • The same for Black Jack Randall - when he confronted Claire in the churchyard with how she could never give Jamie what he did. That's bull and he was blowing hot air. BJR could never know Jamie the way Claire did/does. (NT) -- GwenM, 15:31:14 10/18/07 Thu
                • I don't see Jack Randall's unstable, criminal obsession as a parallel here, or as unrequited love. (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:33:56 10/18/07 Thu
              • Of course it is impossible; they'll never be lovers, spouses, soul mates, or any of the other things that Jamie is for Claire. John and Claire know Jamie in completely different ways, as they each acknowledge. But why shouldn't John, the hero of his own story, have his own "Claire", even if his "Claire" would need to be a man like Jamie? (NT) -- pamelalass, 16:37:20 10/18/07 Thu
                • I hear you! I think that John should have his own Claire. Will he find someone who will help him move past Jaime? I certainly hope so. (NT) -- Oleander, 07:13:43 10/19/07 Fri
            • Oleander, this is beautiful, especially your bittersweet characterization of unrequited love! (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:30:30 10/18/07 Thu
              • Awww, thanks Pamela ! *blushes* (NT) -- Oleander, 09:47:54 10/19/07 Fri
            • Plus---John also seems to be still mourning Hector - who we know he did love and although he is ready to move on, even the physical aspect he isn't as ready to share some things that he freely shared with Hector...although the rape happened after, still, he seems to be like a widower and Jamie is *safe* since there is no real chance of it happening. ye ken? (NT) -- Ciara, 22:18:12 10/20/07 Sat
          • Yeah, we do! Fixate, that is... *G* I think I was as breathless reading the scene where John looks around the stable loft for a place to leave the note, as he was...! It was oddly intimate to "see" Jamie's humble sleeping quarters that way, and reminded me of the small details of his life in the cave. (NT) -- pamelalass, 16:42:24 10/18/07 Thu
    • Wow and wow. There is so much great stuff here, I'm not sure where to start! Pamelalass, I do believe that John must remain alone mostly because of historical circumstances. What might he do, afterall, given his social position--the need for discretion seems to make it almost impossible for John. Were he a more bohemian type, things could be different for him, perhaps.>>>>>> -- teddie (), 14:41:24 10/18/07 Thu
      • I like your musings here, teddie. However we define John's feelings about Jamie, I don't think they are "true love," and I love your simple yet brilliant observation that it can't be, because it's one-sided. There are so many wonderful insights from everyone, and I also especially like the idea that Jamie's inaccessibility to John has in fact furthered the unfortunate and unrequited desire, and allowed it to take on a life of its own. And yes, there's no practical way to imagine John and some other Jamie-esque man having a domestic life like John & Isobel will, in the world these characters inhabit. >>>> -- pamelalass, 17:28:21 10/18/07 Thu
        • Pamelalass, I wish for the same--that John's full story has yet to be told, and that good things will come to those that wait, lol! Considering, though, the scrupulous honor and social correctness DG has attributed to John, it would seem unfathomable for John to bust out in full love mode (ok, so I exaggerate a little!), There is evidence though, that our handsome Johnny circumvents the predictable in this story, (his behavior at the hanging, for example), illustrating his willingness to raise eyebrows for what he believes is just. Perhaps there is hope... (NT) -- teddie, 18:06:04 10/18/07 Thu
      • Thank you for stating so clearly what I was trying to say. You are right, it is not infatuation. It was the only word that I could think of to convey the feeling I had in mind. The feeling of loving someone who cannot and will not love you back, and how your feelings can become so heightened and intense. (NT) -- Oleander, 07:22:12 10/19/07 Fri
  
  

  ---

  
  
• Oh, I'm loving this discussion so far. Percy not of any "brotherhood", verra verra clever, Pamela. I never really thought too heavily about Percy, that's why I love these discussions. I see the book and characters in different lights. But, even with such a wimp like Percy, did John say he did *love* him in his own way. What kind of love do you think John meant? Obviously, not the deep emotional love and respect he has for Jamie or even Stephan. But what kind of love? Perhaps a love that only homosexual men can understand with one another? I don't know. And, do you think Percy loved John? I'm really looking forward to this reread. (NT) -- Conmama, 06:32:09 10/18/07 Thu
  • Oh, and your post just reminded me that Percy's an orphan too, so he is literally without brothers/family as well, if I am remembering this correctly... (NT) -- pamelalass, 08:40:24 10/18/07 Thu
    • He wasn' orphaned until he was an adult,I think, his mother died a few months after marrying General Stanley (for he is a ma-jor general -he is! Hurrah for the ma-jor general) I do think Percy loved John for he saw something he didn't have with other lovers, a relationship that was not only sexual but fraternal as well as intimate and romantic. He also saw th echance of being part of a family that was not disfunctional as his own had been. It seems as though General Stanley (hurrah!) was good to him and treated him as a son but still it was not a true family unit. (NT) -- kgp, 09:30:11 10/18/07 Thu
  • I wonder, was part of John's "love" for Percy due to his weakness? A desire to take care of a teach him? John enjoyed showing off his strength and superior skill, drawing Percy into the military life and tutoring him. Maybe a part of the attraction was because Percy was weaker than he. Could John ever really love someone inherently weaker than he- in the long run, would he not always desire an equal, that brotherhood he feels he shares with jaime which attracts him? (NT) -- Oleander, 12:40:42 10/18/07 Thu
    • John takes care of people - Percy was at the least astute enough to see that. Percy was interested in a lot of the same entertainments as John if not as well read due to circumstance of birth. I think John liked the idea of sharing his world with Percy and saw the unused intellect waiting to be fed. (NT) -- kgp, 14:56:52 10/18/07 Thu
  
  

  ---

  
  
• Your theme brought to my mind an old Dire Straits song Brothers in Arms. Do you know this song? It suits your theme and to Lord John's life so perfectly. A video inside >> -- Helka, 06:33:50 10/18/07 Thu
  • Ooh, thanks Helka! What a lovely connection. It is a powerful theme in all DG's books, but especially and uniquely explored in BOTB. (NT) -- pamelalass, 11:15:26 10/18/07 Thu