I agree, and hope we get to see more of how this relationship evolves in SCOTTISH PRISONER -- BOTB certainly seems to be the nadir for these two, and yet we know they become loyal and affectionate friends, with deep bonds of trust between them, eventually. In between, there is a lot of awkwardness and hostility. There is that one wonderful sequence in DOA when John and Willie arrive on the Ridge and John does say something rather explicit about the elephant in the room (his unrequited love/desire for Jamie), in front of Claire, and Jamie's reaction is one of exasperation and irritation, but not outrage or toxic hostility. In fact, that's one of the funniest sequences in the books, with John and Claire sparring, Jamie slamming his hand on the table and telling them to behave, and then Ian arrives to announce that Willie's gone down the privy... makes me giggle just thinking about it! -- LJG Discussion board

[ Show ]

Support VoyForums

[ Shrink ]

VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

Saturday, June 08, 19:53:12 [ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, [7], 8, 9 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 15:20:58 09/29/07 Sat
Author:

pamelalass
Subject: I agree, and hope we get to see more of how this relationship evolves in SCOTTISH PRISONER -- BOTB certainly seems to be the nadir for these two, and yet we know they become loyal and affectionate friends, with deep bonds of trust between them, eventually. In between, there is a lot of awkwardness and hostility. There is that one wonderful sequence in DOA when John and Willie arrive on the Ridge and John does say something rather explicit about the elephant in the room (his unrequited love/desire for Jamie), in front of Claire, and Jamie's reaction is one of exasperation and irritation, but not outrage or toxic hostility. In fact, that's one of the funniest sequences in the books, with John and Claire sparring, Jamie slamming his hand on the table and telling them to behave, and then Ian arrives to announce that Willie's gone down the privy... makes me giggle just thinking about it!
In reply to: Karen 's message, "I suspect this is going to be one of the things Lord John and Jamie will have to settle between them in SCOTTISH PRISONER. I wonder if they will ever get to a point where Lord John could actually say this to Jamie?" on 13:48:21 09/29/07 Sat

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

Sorry - I did niot see it as Jamie telling Claire to behave in ANY WAY whatsoever. When he banged his fist on the desk (and that WAS OUTRAGE), Jamie yelled one word "JOHN". Jamie in NO WAY rebuked Claire. All Claire asked was why did John come there. (NT) -- GwenM, 15:50:21 09/29/07 Sat
- Exactly. Jamie's anger/exasperation at that point is completely focused on Lord John. Remember what the comment was that prompted Jamie's reaction ("I did not come here with the intention of seducing your husband" or words to that effect). Jamie is outraged, I think, as much on Claire's behalf as his own. And John realizes the comment was uncalled-for, and immediately apologizes. (NT) -- Karen (), 17:35:46 09/29/07 Sat
  - Yes, John's response to Claire was completely over the line, especially in that time and place, as he himself realizes. I do think it's an interesting example (and there aren't very many) of a time when John actually verbalizes something of this deep truth about his unrequited and unresolved feelings for Jamie. Are there other times when he talks openly about it in Jamie's presence, or just with Bree, and later, indirectly, with Claire? (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:50:56 09/29/07 Sat
- Sorry to hijack this thread into a discussion of a non-BOTB scene! It's always intriguing to me how some of DG's pivotal or intense scenes leave room for various interpretations. I can certainly see outrage at John alone as one way to interpret this scene but I've always found additional undercurrents here, and find the scene both emotional and humorous. It's only my take on it, of course, and it's colored by what comes after, when the two men share such a laugh over Willie's misadventure, and then stay up half the night talking. It's no wonder Claire was not inclined to be friendly to John, but at this stage Jamie seems more than ready to welcome John as a friend whose company he genuinely enjoys. >>> -- pamelalass, 17:43:43 09/29/07 Sat
  - Sorry - ONCE AGAIN. I see NO exasperation with Claire on Jamie's part. Claire was NEVER out-of-line in this exchange. Jamie is in NO WAY upset with Claire here. Jamie would never choose John over Claire in ANY situation. This is Jamie AND Claire's house and it was JOHN being disrespectful - to Claire. (NT) -- GwenM, 19:37:25 09/29/07 Sat
  - I agree. DG writes in such a way that she gives us information, and we fill in the blanks. How the blanks are filled tends to vary, and I think that some readers surprise Herself when they don't seem to pick up on the "clues" that she leaves, but I think that for the most part we end up on the right track, tho' taking different byways. My take on this scene was that Jamie simply wanted to end the exchange before it went any further. LJG and Willie's arrival put the adults on edge. Claire had already been short with LJG, and he had come back with the uncalled for comment. Jamie was angry at the turn things were taking and letting that anger out let him take control, his version of throwing cold water on the situation, and it worked. Both stepped back, took a look at their actions, and apologized, as Jamie had likely known both would, once their cooler heads had a chance to prevail. That LJG did reveal some of his inner thoughts and feelings was a neat bonus. (NT) -- Lady Jay, 08:49:22 09/30/07 Sun
    - Yes, "throwing cold water" on it - that's what I was trying to say, only you captured it so much better! And reading this new book does make me look at some of my favorite parts of the older books with new eyes - - as you say, John's comment is kind of a bonus to the reader (though clearly nothing of the sort for Claire and Jamie!), and I hadn't thought of it that way before. It's part of his richness as a character, that he's not perfect, and acts like a jerk sometimes. (NT) -- pamelalass, 15:11:32 09/30/07 Sun
      - I want to jump in on this bandwagon *g*. I've thought alot about this scene in the past, because it's one of my favorites. My first take on it was that Jamie was embarrassed with what John said, period. Now, after this lengthy and interesting discussion/debate I have a more in-depth opinion about the scene. Jamie, out of love and the utmost respect for Claire, would never have said anything to her in public about her comment to Lord John. (although he would have in private, I suspect). But, Lord John took what Claire said and ran with it. At THAT point, Jamie knew he wanted to put a stop to this runaway, snippy exchange. However, it was John who crossed the line, so to speak....but it was also intended to stop Claire from going any further...but without humiliating her because he loves her. Sooooo...in the final analysis....it was both for John AND Claire to stop...but he was smacking LJG's hand, so to speak. (NT) -- Conmama, 05:19:11 10/02/07 Tue

[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums^(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.