Here's my take on introducing LJ as a soldier who happens to be homosexual. Much discussion and controversy surrounds Jonathan Randall, a soldier who happens to be a psychopathic sadist. DG has stated emphatically that he is NOT a homosexual but a sadist who used men sexually because he knows it is the most destructive tool for a heterosexual male. He used a whip on his victims, not as a seduction, but to systemactically <I>destroy</I> them physically and psychologically. He could use women also but only if she was as unwilling as the men. To introduce a soldier who is honorable, sensitive, understands the meaning of "no", and admires Jamie's character and intelligence without sexual contact really stirs the pot. -- LJG Discussion board

[ Show ]

Support VoyForums

[ Shrink ]

VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

Tuesday, June 04, 7:20:59 [ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, [9] ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 06:41:57 09/08/07 Sat
Author: tlk2vicki
Subject: Here's my take on introducing LJ as a soldier who happens to be homosexual. Much discussion and controversy surrounds Jonathan Randall, a soldier who happens to be a psychopathic sadist. DG has stated emphatically that he is NOT a homosexual but a sadist who used men sexually because he knows it is the most destructive tool for a heterosexual male. He used a whip on his victims, not as a seduction, but to systemactically destroy them physically and psychologically. He could use women also but only if she was as unwilling as the men. To introduce a soldier who is honorable, sensitive, understands the meaning of "no", and admires Jamie's character and intelligence without sexual contact really stirs the pot.
In reply to: pamelalass 's message, "So interesting, tlk2vicki! I don't know what the scandal was either, but your comment about the book helping you gain more understanding makes me wonder how DG came up with it all? I often wonder how she came up with the whole idea of Lord John - he appears as a young naive soldier in Outlander but then comes back as Jamie's warden, and is gay, and falls in love with Jamie??! How did she come up with it?! I've always thought it was a brilliant way to create a subversive love triangle that reinforces the power and strength of the core love story and marriage, and I admire DG's decision to create this strong character, and then to make him a leading man in his own series of books. Still of course I wonder how did she "get" him right? And though we love him a lot, I wonder if gay male readers think of him as a hero? OTOH, he's just a character, and I don't want to suggest that he has to stand in and represent the whole "gay experience" in the 18th century." on 19:33:49 09/07/07 Fri

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

Thanks so much for coming back to talk about this, ladies. Since he is such a favorite of mine, I find myself pondering all of this quite a lot, but hadn't had the nerve to post about it on the Books board... (sheepish *g*). I completely agree that he exists in the Books to "stir the pot," and I love how DG uses her characters to force readers to examine our assumptions about masculinity, femininity, love, duty, etc. Because he represents something so much more "unknown" to her mainstream readers, John draws a lot of controversy, and having him be in love with Jamie REALLY raises the heat on things. Do you think she decided to do this after readers reacted to BJR in Outlander, or did she have it in mind all along? (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:09:33 09/08/07 Sat
- That's an interesting question to ponder, pamelalass, since I find few characters in the books that are truly inconsequential. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the whole storyline existed from the start, or maybe subconsciously so, or maybe they talked to her along the way, or maybe who knows what! Lol...Would you consider posting that question over at Compuserve for DG to respond to? I'd love to hear her answer! (NT) -- teddie, 07:46:36 09/08/07 Sat
  - Oh teddie, I'm shy about asking Herself to comment on my random musings... *g* I'm sure most of the essential elements of the Outlander saga were there from the beginning, even if they were not all fully articulated on a conscious, book-specific level. But feel free to pose the question over there yourself, if there seems to be a likely moment! It's amazing/impressive she's keeping up with her forum at all, with the intense pace of her book tour this month. (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:11:03 09/08/07 Sat
    - No, pamelalass, I'll not either...somehow, when I post there, I always end up feeling foolish. My first post there had to do with the theme of euthanasia that presents itself often in the books, but I didn't express myself too well....I'll keep a low profile, then. ( Are you the Pam that posts there with the blonde hair?) (NT) -- teddie, 18:52:48 09/08/07 Sat
      - I've only posted there twice, both times about the early 17th-century portrait of the Duke of Buckingham that LJG and Percy are "ogling" at the Foundling Hospital in BOTB; the Pam with blonde hair posted in that discussion too, but she's not me. *g* I posted as "pamelalass," not having a clue that if I'd used my real name it might possibly have ended up in the acknowledgments instead of my LOL name! But I beg to differ with you about your posts over there -- there's someone who signs as "teddie" though her posting name is something different. If that's you, I always find myself thinking how great your comments are! (NT) -- pamelalass, 19:46:57 09/08/07 Sat
        My posting name is teepe54...and thank you if that is who you mean, Pamelalass (NT) -- teddie, 19:57:09 09/08/07 Sat
        Yes! that's it - a smart woman, teepe54. I always learn something from the questions you come up with! There's an interesting new post over at Compuserve about the flogging scene in BOTB and its echo of the Ardsmuir flogging. Makes me realize (again!) how each reader picks up on different elements in the story, and some analyses enrich the meaning, and the story itself, a great deal. (NT) -- pamelalass, 04:48:30 09/09/07 Sun
        I think you're referring to my post on the Compuserve board yesterday. I didn't get a response from Diana but I would be happy to talk about it here (more inside >>>>>>>>>>>) -- Karen, 07:50:19 09/09/07 Sun
        I felt a strong sexual component when John allows Percy to flog him; not surprising, considering John's feelings for James entwined with his feelings of guilt and shame. Or am I citing the obvious here? (NT) -- teddie, 08:12:32 09/09/07 Sun
        You're definitely right about that. The sexual content of his dreams afterward makes that very clear. (NT) -- Karen, 08:19:45 09/09/07 Sun
        Hi Karen, and thank you so much for re-posting your wonderfully insightful comments here! The way this scene both echoes and re-imagines the Ardsmuir flogging sequence is quite powerful. >>>more inside >>> -- pamelalass, 08:47:18 09/09/07 Sun
        I think you're right that they do need each other, though they won't realize it until they manage to establish a relationship without all the sexual overtones. I agree that Jamie seems much more hostile in this book than in VOYAGER, but then, he's probably at the lowest point of his life since Culloden. Yes, he's a leader of men, and Lord John has taken that away from him, by separating him from the other Ardsmuir men. It's no wonder that he feels a lot of anger and resentment toward John. It will be really interesting to see how all this is resolved, eventually, in SCOTTISH PRISONER. (NT) -- Karen, 09:03:33 09/09/07 Sun
        What a treat it is to get the "blanks" filled in for us, regardless of the fact that it is drawn out a bit (thereby enhancing our anticipation!) Not only is DG excellent at her craft, but she is so generous to give us more and more of these characters. Yes; now I am *truly* citing the obvious. (NT) -- teddie, 09:16:14 09/09/07 Sun
        Oh, I can't believe this fun discussion is underway and my DDs are running wild all over the place, stuck inside on this rainy Sunday! I will try to convey this next thought briefly, though I may have to come back to articulate it more coherently. >>> -- pamelalass, 09:47:12 09/09/07 Sun
        I agree herself has set herself up for a big job in working all this out in The Scottish Prisoner, but we all know from experience that she is up for the task! Just for the folks who might not have seen the link I posted yesterday, you might want to look at what Diana wrote a while back that might help shed some light on her thoughts about this relationship http://community.compuserve.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?msg=50820.3&nav=messages&webtag=ws-books&redirCnt=1 (NT) -- Jane, 11:24:23 09/09/07 Sun
        I am so sad I missed this fascinating conversation! I am so glad that I wandered back to the LOL boards- I have always wished that I had people to discuss books (these in particular, or any in general) with the way you all are discussing them! (NT) -- Oleander, 13:18:56 09/10/07 Mon
        Teddie, I also have a question for you I was going to email >>>> -- pamelalass, 11:53:18 09/09/07 Sun

[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums^(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.