I'm going to make a few general comments real fast. -- The Beta Board

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Date Posted: 20:51:02 01/16/04 Fri
Author: Shanola
Subject: I'm going to make a few general comments real fast.
In reply to: Madison 's message, "part 5" on 19:03:21 01/12/04 Mon

First, let me say that you've got some nice wording here and there. I feel as though I'm watching a butterfly flapping his wings to build strength. I think you have the tools you need to grow into a good writer.

But I have serious reservations about the main character in this particluar piece. Why would Section kidnap an innocent 15 year old? She's six feet tall, so it couldn't be because they thought she'd be able to blend into a crowd.

Yes, we've seen in canon that Birkoff was in Section from a baby and Greg Hillenger was brought into Section as a teenager. But Birkoff wasn't living on the outside and Greg brought his ultimate recruitment upon himself. If you recall the ep featuring Greg, Section didn't ask for his help lightly, not in the beginning. At first, they were against it. He was a last choice.

So, yeah, I'm having serious reservations about why on earth Section would recruit a teenager.

And you've got her down as a 15 year old but honestly, I haven't ever met a 15 year old as mature as Erika. Not in America anyway. Maybe in Europe. But in America, or even Canada, I think teenagers are allowed to be children for a long, long time. I know I was. I had no idea about the world as a larger place, not when I was 15. That came later, during college. I'm not saying someone who lived on the streets or was raised on welfare or had a really tough life wouldn't be mature at fifteen. I think many of them are. Many girls are raising babies at fifteen or making money for themselves, however they can.

But your character feels as though she was raised upper middle class and I just can't buy her maturity.

I keep wondering which Horatio Hornblower you want her trainer to look like. I have the feeling you mean Ian Guffold from the A&E versions but there were some Horatio Hornblower movies made back in the fifties and the character in the book is even more different then the old movie version. My advice? Avoid comparing your characters to movie stars. I think it complicates things.

Hmm....though that's not to say you can't make *any* comparasion to movie stars. Something like, "His eyes reminded her of Paul Newman's baby blues" works somewhat (okay, yeah, I know, I made that up on the spur of them moment and it aint a great sentence but go with me here!LOL)...um, yeah. Anyway, that sort of comparision works better for me than saying, "He looked just like Paul Newman." Because I remember Paul Newman as youngish, then older, and now older still. Which look were you going for? See what I mean?

But I see a lot of good in your writing. I see *potential*, which is very cool.

I'm going to try to find time (and I have to go *look* for it, because it keep running out on me, damnit!) to go through and beta each piece you've posted. Give me a few days, though, okay? I've got a busy, busy schedule for the next few days.

Thanks for posting here, too, btw. I don't feel comfortable posting critiques on the storyboards but I think it's terrific when people really want to improve their writing. =P

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[> [> [> Can I mention.... -- Madison, 07:03:34 01/17/04 Sat

Thanks very much for responding, but there are a few things I'd like to briefly argue....

1) What teenager doesn't have a celeberty crush? It was a small detail I put in to characterize her as a teenager, and I did mean the Horatio from the A&E versions.
2)I was very tall in high school, and I'm trying hard not to make Erika a mimi-me, and kids who are tall (sometimes, but not always) are expected by socitety to act their height, not their age. And kids who are teased (which I've briefly alluded to, but might make more clear in the future)have to handle much more in a more mature way... hence Erika's seeming over-maturity. And I'll admit mature 15-year-olds are very rare in the US, they're not non-existant.

But really, thanks heaps for responding, I really, really
appreciete it. Madison

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[> [> [> [> Hmm... -- Shanola, 18:22:15 01/17/04 Sat

I wasn't trying to imply that teenagers don't have celebrity crushes. You are writing from Erika's POV, and that's fine. But you as the author should also keep in mind the larger audience who may not know who Horatio Hornblower is. I love HH. I own the DVD's. I own the books and have read them several times. One of the outstanding characterists of HH in the books is his paunchy belly, which he absolutely hates but can't do anything about. He's also started to lose his hair, which he also hates. And he is completely tone deaf. When I think of HH, I think of those facts first. When Erika said he looked like HH, I immediately thought Balding and Paunchy belly, can't dance because he can't hear music....and I do not think that's what you are going for. Too late for me, though, because now James is balding with a paunchy belly and he'll never, ever dance because he is comepletely tone deaf.

See?

What I would suggest instead is to have Erika note his physical description, on the off chance someone hasen't ever seen the HH movies, and then have her conclude he looks a little like HH in the movies.

Example:

A man walked in the door. He had brown hair that leaned towards curls, brown eyes and sharp features. I imediately thought of the actor who played Horatio Hornblower in the televised movies.

Do you see how that gives the reader a reference to go with even though the reader may not have any idea who HH is?

As for point two...I've known young people who are very tall for their age. They *still* act like annoying teenagers from time to time.

Erika says she is very tall and somewhat clumsy, but I don't see her act self-conscious about that at all. In fact, I don't see any self-consciousness about her at all. She stands brazenly up to Madeline. "Tell me why you think I'm pretty. And be truthful."? I can't believe any fifteen year old would say that. They'd be more likely to say, "Really? You think I'm pretty? Why?"

I guess it's the word choices you've made for Erika. They don't reference to any teenaged tempo I've ever read. I love Young Adult books. I think Vivian Vande Velde is a goddess and everyone should read her works, teenager or not. I think great literature is written in the genre. And yet, even the most mature teenaged characters in those books are not as mature as Erika.

In order for Erika to avoid being a Mary Sue, I need to see her vulnerabilities. I need to see her as a complicated human who is struggling to find her way, wether she knows it or not. There is a fine line to being mature, and many adults still have a hard time walking it. Teenagers are still trying to learn how and sometimes swing wildly one way then the other, much like the balance bar a tightrope walker carries. I need to see her learn to control her emotions.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Hmm... -- Madison, 09:56:33 01/18/04 Sun

I see your point... and I'm tryng to make Erika act her age, u say, and walk that fine line without being Mary Sue.
And about HH- um, when I started the re-write of this story, I had just seen the reruns of the movies on A&E, and it's been ages since I read the books, so I will clairfy that... and I'm sorry you now have a less than flattering image of James because that was NOT my intention. (honestly!!!)
look for a repost and I'd love to know what you think

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