VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, [4] ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 03:14:12 05/28/07 Mon
Author: Graham Cox (Somewhat worried...)
Subject: It's not about being fluent, integration is only possible through effective communication.
In reply to: Samir to George Cox 's message, "Re: The right to learn to the language." on 16:08:13 05/26/07 Sat

“First of all a large quantity of English people who go and live overseas do not bother to learn the local language from my experience. Their excuse is usually because English is an international language why bother learning it. To be honest I think they have a point and they have a right to do so and not be forced to learn a language if they dont wish to.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello again Samir, thank you for your correspondence. It is GRAHAM by the way = ).
The problem I have with your claim is I’m afraid in some countries that the English AND others of differing nations, cultures and creeds supposedly flock to, it is ESSENTIAL to learn the language, and in several countries, a requirement if you are looking to stay for any prolonged period. Be it right or wrong in your view, it is put in place to stop not only confusion, but also to actively demote any segregate behaviour; such communalist behaviour and apparent “freedoms” thus result in ghettos or pockets of particular races, religions or sects, as we already have here. That is NOT what I would call diversity or Multiculturalism Samir, and neither is it acceptable in a modern, supposedly integrated society.

I am not supposing that anyone entering anywhere should learn the language fluently, but ENOUGH to make communication easy for the indigenous populate of the country you wish to emigrate to, so as not to arouse suspicion or negativity about what the unfamiliar investiture “could” be saying.

By claiming that it is OK for people to speak their own language in a foreign country whilst making NO effort at all to learn the dialect “if they don’t want to” is somewhat prejudiced my friend, as it would appear that you promote self-serving within a racial partition, putting it bluntly, by example if you want to serve solely Urdu speaking people in solely Urdu speaking stores and other businesses, you are promoting racism under Marxist dogma Samir, and my argument is, if I openly floated such ideas, I would be prosecuted, persecuted and damn near executed for daring to suggest such a thing. So why are you allowed to?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Talking about unscrupulous immigrants and ethnic minorities, yes i agree with you they should be punished. But you cannot tar all people who do not want to speak english with the same brush, rather the law needs to be altered and a better one found to solve the problems you have mentioned above.”
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I never claimed you were ALL aggressively using foreign language as an excuse did I? Don’t tar ME with the same brush you tar the average BNP supporter with just because I may take opposition to your views. And the laws in place I’m afraid almost encourage this behaviour, again down to political correctness and a failure by those in power to do anything right, twinned with hypersensitivity to oppression and “dogmatic racism” by “certain” groups. = )

Yesterday’s news proved that…

By such if the Police wish to stop ANYONE with regard to anti-terrorism or whatever, they should be allowed to without question. After all, it is their job to protect and serve, and if you have nothing to hide, why are you afraid of being searched? It isn’t oppression, and to be perfectly honest, if moderate Muslims oppose acts of terrorism within their own flock, and I’m sure they do, why wouldn’t they right? Then, why don’t they stand up and be counted? Why sit on the fence to cry “oppression” when they have nothing to hide? Why aren’t they jumping up and down crying “good, we hate terrorists, arrest them all!”??

It is NOT domineering to wish to search for explosives on anyone when such acts take place every day, killing thousands of innocent people, and the world surely and most definitely has been touched by the cancer of malignant Islamic fundamentalism in recent years, it has spread ferociously.

If Muslims therefore condemn actively searching for terrorists, how can they then claim to oppose their albeit “explosive” actions?

However, when you claim such laws should be changed, what suggestions would you make in light of events like this, where foreign language IS often used to present a palette of ignorance to UK laws and a “misunderstanding” of its rules and regulations?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“I Certainly will never drop the PAKISTANI bit as you put it and i am frankly quite amazed that you would suggest that, like you said this is Multicultural Britain a Britain with many cultures Pakistanis being one of them! What you are suggesting is that we drop who we are and forget our heritage, a heritage that is one of the most rich in the world. We are first and foremost pakistani muslims, then british and there is nothing wrong with that and i dont think many of you english realise this. I dont believe at all that you are racist but just a little bit not informed.”
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do I honestly come across as being misinformed Samir? If I was so ill-informed that I didn’t understand why you feel proud of your heritage and culture, why did I question you regarding my right to do the same?

What I “realise” Samir is that when an Englishman promotes Englishness, a screaming, chanting noise is heard, from the ‘Left side of the great divide’, and unfortunately, there are a number of ethnically charged “quangos” and organisations ready to cry for the abolition of anything English, in favour of this liquidised “diversity” claim that appears to have somewhat poisoned any real chance of multiracial harmoniousness in modern Britain, due to meddling and a flagrant disregard of the indigenous populate. It all accounts to favouritism Samir, and THAT is why Britain has a burgeoning Nationalist or “Traditionalist” in the better sense of the word, uprising in this country at the moment.
But I would be quick to question your perception Samir, because I would be steadfast to point out that the vision of a white, BNP loving thug with a skinhead is NOT what I am trying to portray, but for arguments sake, say, an elderly war veteran, or, as the news again has so rightly shone light, an elderly Ghurkha war veteran, who has been refused entry into Britain for “not having ties with this country”, despite fighting for her shores during WW2, whilst countless pathetic socialist groups and ill-educated liberal entities fight for the right of countless asylum claimants or benefit/NHS tourists who REALLY have no “direct ties” with Britain.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“you are probably right, but dont have ago at me about it. I think you are well within your rights to say all of what you have just said as long as you dont be racist to other cultures.”
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nobody is having a go Samir, and when you get prickly like that it proves my earlier point exactly. If you’re looking for excuses to point the finger and call me racist, do so my friend, but just bare thought and understand that I don’t play into the hands of idiotic Lib-Soc stifling. And if I recall, it was YOU who promoted segregation and “racist” views earlier, by promoting a failure or indeed a refusal to integrate if one chooses not to, I’m sorry, but I see a very important part of integration into a society other than your own, the ability to communicate effectively and a willingness to fit in.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“I agree with you that the do gooders are a big problem and they cause most of the tension between my people and yours. It is they who we should get rid of. They should allow all people to celebrate their culture and heritage English, Pakistani etc.
As for spaeking a language, a person doesnt nedd to learn a whole language to learn the law. A person can be an abiding citizen without having to learn english. I know a few people who know the law very well but dont speak english, id argue that they know the law better than most English laymen. So I just think there is no need to make a big issue out of something like this.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I celebrate the fact that you are indeed smart enough to see through the cloud of PC bigotry to encourage the celebration of the National heritage, as well as that of its newfound entrants; yet again however I would take issue with why you with regard to learning language, especially as you now claim that non-English speaking people learn “the law” without ever speaking a word of English, so obviously you don’t include the law of ethics in your equation? And although I realise that English law is probably printed in a plethora of languages for the benefit of our non-English speaking guests, it somehow doesn’t appear right when presented to people seeking residency, who don’t want to learn the language, and yet again, use such pamphlets as an excuse that they don’t have to.

It isn’t about just being an abiding citizen with regard to the laws of the land, and I fail to see how abiding can be wholly achieved when you have no wish to learn even the smallest of phrases to ensure a healthy and communicative relationship with the indigenous people of the country you reside in, especially when some of those, well-informed or not, will already view you as a threat be you from the East or West respectively, and your failure to learn the language even at foundation level or show a lackadaisical attitude at being able to communicate any kind of interest in societal integration will not assist you in becoming an “abiding citizen” morally, and shows those with disinterest to be abhorrent, whatever their colour or creed.

And believe me when I tell you, most English louts you speak of know the law full well, it is more a question of whether they choose to follow it this week or not, and I don’t back them up in any way shape or form, they do not represent me, just as I would not, and never have, assumed that terrorists represent every Pakistani or Muslim person the world over. So don’t tar me either.

A failure or unconcern/outright refusal to integrate even at a most basic communicative level is a very big issue indeed Samir.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
“As long as we are all kind and polite to each other we dont have to have anything forced upon us. As for the muslims that cause problems well they are a minority troubled group just like in any society and we need to get rid of them. We have got our own societys here and we dont have to speak english in our society. Where I live is in an asian area and most people speak in the south asian languages, so there is no need to speak english and there are no problems if we dont. Not being forced to learn a language is surely a liberty that everybody should have. For those who wish to learn another language good for them. By the way the BNP will never get into power”

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I’m sorry Samir but that constitutes racism. You cannot promote or indeed encourage ghettos or “areas” of predominantly Asian, white, black or whatever, then speak to me about diversity and multiculturalism, as you do bugger-all but contradict yourself when you talk like this!

It IS, I repeat, IS a problem when people entering a country feel the way you do, that is, they wish to create their OWN societies, shunning others, create their OWN areas in a country that does not wholly share your language or religion, and eschew integration in favour of pro-ethnic autonomy and a taciturn attitude to outside communities, especially those of differing racial or religious backgrounds. Simply trying or putting on a facade of politeness is not good enough, and how am I supposed to know when someone is being polite when I cannot understand a word they are saying?

You simply cannot imply that there is no problem providing you’re OK because “we have our own societies” because that my friend is racial discrimination! I thought you would be intelligent enough to realise that “positive discrimination” is STILL inequity, and there is nothing positive about it.

Then you tell me that you wholeheartedly oppose terrorist activity yet tell me you honestly don’t think integration or effective communication BETWEEN ethnic groups is significant. That arouses suspicion Samir, especially when you denigrate societal interaction yet strangely promote Asian-only areas with an ill-informed sense that it is OK providing you do no apparent material harm outside your clique. So by your ideology it is OK for racist, right-wing extremists to endorse all-white areas providing they don’t call ethnics names and can be seen occasionally blurting out hypocrisies?

And yet you proudly proclaim there will never be room for the BNP, yet from the same theoretic canon do you fire your stratagem. That’s actually quite worrying Samir, because I now wonder how many more feels the same way, and where this philosophy of “Asian Autonomy” is heading, and I fear that the MoD’s recent foretelling of civil war is but one step closer to becoming tomorrow’s headline…

Graham Cox.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.