Re: The meaning of eternal/unquenchable -- Catholic Friends Forum

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Date Posted: 20:45:25 02/17/08 Sun
Author: catie
Author Host/IP: h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net / 71.28.8.78
Subject: Re: The meaning of eternal/unquenchable
In reply to: Joan 's message, "The meaning of eternal/unquenchable" on 11:29:20 02/12/08 Tue

Joan sorry to be delayed in replying. My schedule has been hectic. Saturday is church. Monday night grief therapy, Wed I have counseling with my pastor, then Wed night bible study. Now on top of all of that, I have begun a Dave Ramsey financial course. I can't even balance a check book. No joke. Grrr. On top of all of it I have felt of little worth physically. My head has hurt so badly for days, so much so I can't stand to wear contacts or glasses. It's been too painful to even read- even scripture.

I will try to answer the best I can but I don't recall the exact scripture I first used, but it was where the scripture referred to Sodom and Gomorra being burned with an unquenchable fire. My point is, it was "unquenchable" -no one or anything could put it out, but it did burn until all was destroyed. It is not burning today.

I will need to find the scripture where it states God makes Satan and his angels ashes beneath our feet right here on earth where he sets up new Jerusalem.

I realize no matter what scripture you or I use, we are forever on the opposite end of the scale of our convictions. It's just the way it is. No hard feelings, but we come from different denominations and that's just the way it is. You feel your church's teachings are accurate and I don't. I feel mine are accurate but you see me as a non-catholic and I know Catholic's teach they are the one true church. Life is just that way. Long ago I prayed for God to lead me into all truth. In faith I believed him to do that. I studied and prayed and studied and prayed some more. True Christians walk by faith and not by sight. Some things "seem" truthful, or logicial, and sometimes there is a little bit of truth mixed with a lot of non-truth that can throw one off the narrow path. I stand firm in my faith today just as you do yours. :)

I do believe there will be a fire that destroys evil. It is certainly not an everlasting fire. Evil can not exisit in the very presence of God. Moses saw the back of God and his face was burned, and he was blinded for a short time. God spared him. But when sin is judged it will be consumed just because it will be in the very presence of God. In order for him to set up New Jerusalem here on this earth, to recreate paradise as he intended it to be, no sin will not be allowed to dwell here or anywhere.

As for purgatory, I understand what you are saying, but of course as you probably well know, I don't accept the teaching of purgatory. It is not scriptural (according to my bible). Bible quote "It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement" so on the great day of resurrection, the unrighteous will be judged.

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[> [> Two judgements? -- Joan, 05:14:00 02/18/08 Mon [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

Do you believe that there are two judgements? I beleive that all of us are judged at death. Do you believe that we all have to wait for general judgement, meaning that there is no personal judgement at death?

Joan

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[> [> [> Re: Two judgements? -- Catie, 06:46:23 02/18/08 Mon [1] (h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net/71.28.8.78)

I apologize for not having exact scripture at hand. Once upon a time I could recall those things. Now, my brain is mush. If you want scriptures then let me know. I will get them. Here is what the bible says about judgement.

Christians are forgiven. As far as the East is from the West so are our sins, cast even unto the deepest seas. We know that is an expression, meaning the Christian is truly forgiven. It's as if sin never happened. Now we have the Holy Spirit here to guide us "into all truth" We know Christ IS the truth. We "hear" that little voice, our hearts are tugged whenever sin is present and we are confronted with a choice. We then choose according to our will. The Christian is being judged by God now, daily, as the holy spirit guides us. How else could those dead in Christ be resurrected right into heaven? Would God be mean enough to allow some to come to heaven only to be judged and then cast them away?! No. Never. Remember in Revelations Satan goes before God to condemn the Christians and it says the Book of Life is opened and their names were found written there? God will say, "What sin?" for the bible tells us he will remember our sins no more. "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ" At the day of judgement God sees no sin in his Christians but only the blood of Christ. Just as in the old testament, death passed by the house whose doorpost was stained with the blood of the slain lamb. For those whose names are not written in the book, judgement will take place after the resurrection of all sinners including the dead in sin. "That great and terrible day of the Lord" as John the revelator called it. Those in sin will be judged individually, but in God's way and time. I believe it will all happen in a moment's time. Each one at the same time being "reminded" of their sins of how they rejected God. It is not two judgements, but consider God's timing, it is all A Day of judgement.

As for the fire, according to John in Revelations, he saw a literal fire, an all consuming fire, where sin is swallowed up, burned away, in the presence of holiness. God himself.

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[> [> I don't believe that these fires are literal fires, -- Joan, 05:19:44 02/18/08 Mon [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

and I think that's where we are parting. The unquenchable fire is eternal--by definition and because it says that the punishment is eternal. Now obviously, to me anyway :), this isn't a literal fire. This is just one of the many literary techniques the writers used.

Joan

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[> [> [> Joan -- Catie, 06:51:41 02/18/08 Mon [1] (h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net/71.28.8.78)

Remember, here on earth God will set up his new Jerusalem, heaven. He can not stand in the presence of sin. Fire purifies, cleanses. The holiness of God, the very sight of him will cause a pure fire to burn away sin. John in Revelations saw as it were "a lake of fire". If all sin is being destroyed and you were trying to describe what you saw, you might use that term, "a lake of fire." for all sin is being consumed at once. We know that death, hell, and Satan, all sin, are cast into the lake of fire.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Joan -- Joan, 15:00:37 02/18/08 Mon [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

What is eternal punishment?

It sounds as if you're saying that those "in Hell" will have their sins "burned away". I don't believe that. I think that the eternal punishment is eternal seperation from God. Again, I'm not talking about literal fire. I still think that's where our views start to diverge. It seems that you think of this fire as a literal thing.

Joan

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