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Date Posted: 11:29:20 02/12/08 Tue
Author: Joan
Author Host/IP: ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net / 68.0.253.131
Subject: The meaning of eternal/unquenchable
Catie, a while back you mentioned that "unquenchable" doesn't mean forever, to you. That's paraphrasing, and I may have got it wrong.
From Matthew -
"And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
In this passage, eternal means, to me, forever. The righteous will be with God forever. The others will be forever punished.
And then we have the matter of unquenchable fire. We know that the others will suffer eternal punishment, and that punishment is named--unquenchable fire. A fire that can never be satisfied.
Now, I don't believe that there is a real fire. :) But the punishment is eternal, meaning permanent.
Just as the righteous will be with God permanently (eternally), the others will be punished permanently (eternally). There is no relief. So the unquenchable fire (punishment) is one that can never be satisfied. One that will never end, because the punishment (fire) is eternal (forever).
Purgatory, otoh, is about being cleansed as if through a cleansing fire. Again, not a real fire.:) This "fire" isn't eternal. This isn't unquenchable fire. This will be satisfied. There is an end. This isn't eternal. The person will eventually have eternal life with God.
I'm wondering why you think that unquenchable doesn't mean unable to be satisfied, as it does when we say "an unquenchable thirst for knowledge", meaning that there is no end to this person's desire to learn. The desire is eternal. No amount of knowledge will quench that desire.
Joan
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Re: The meaning of eternal/unquenchable -- Catie, 05:28:27 02/13/08 Wed [1] (h27.55.90.75.ip.alltel.net/75.90.55.27)
Joan, it's 8:30 here and I have a hair appointment in 30 min. I will look the scriptures and get back with you later today on this. :)
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Re: The meaning of eternal/unquenchable -- catie, 20:45:25 02/17/08 Sun [1] (h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net/71.28.8.78)
Joan sorry to be delayed in replying. My schedule has been hectic. Saturday is church. Monday night grief therapy, Wed I have counseling with my pastor, then Wed night bible study. Now on top of all of that, I have begun a Dave Ramsey financial course. I can't even balance a check book. No joke. Grrr. On top of all of it I have felt of little worth physically. My head has hurt so badly for days, so much so I can't stand to wear contacts or glasses. It's been too painful to even read- even scripture.
I will try to answer the best I can but I don't recall the exact scripture I first used, but it was where the scripture referred to Sodom and Gomorra being burned with an unquenchable fire. My point is, it was "unquenchable" -no one or anything could put it out, but it did burn until all was destroyed. It is not burning today.
I will need to find the scripture where it states God makes Satan and his angels ashes beneath our feet right here on earth where he sets up new Jerusalem.
I realize no matter what scripture you or I use, we are forever on the opposite end of the scale of our convictions. It's just the way it is. No hard feelings, but we come from different denominations and that's just the way it is. You feel your church's teachings are accurate and I don't. I feel mine are accurate but you see me as a non-catholic and I know Catholic's teach they are the one true church. Life is just that way. Long ago I prayed for God to lead me into all truth. In faith I believed him to do that. I studied and prayed and studied and prayed some more. True Christians walk by faith and not by sight. Some things "seem" truthful, or logicial, and sometimes there is a little bit of truth mixed with a lot of non-truth that can throw one off the narrow path. I stand firm in my faith today just as you do yours. :)
I do believe there will be a fire that destroys evil. It is certainly not an everlasting fire. Evil can not exisit in the very presence of God. Moses saw the back of God and his face was burned, and he was blinded for a short time. God spared him. But when sin is judged it will be consumed just because it will be in the very presence of God. In order for him to set up New Jerusalem here on this earth, to recreate paradise as he intended it to be, no sin will not be allowed to dwell here or anywhere.
As for purgatory, I understand what you are saying, but of course as you probably well know, I don't accept the teaching of purgatory. It is not scriptural (according to my bible). Bible quote "It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement" so on the great day of resurrection, the unrighteous will be judged.
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Two judgements? -- Joan, 05:14:00 02/18/08 Mon [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
Do you believe that there are two judgements? I beleive that all of us are judged at death. Do you believe that we all have to wait for general judgement, meaning that there is no personal judgement at death?
Joan
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Re: Two judgements? -- Catie, 06:46:23 02/18/08 Mon [1] (h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net/71.28.8.78)
I apologize for not having exact scripture at hand. Once upon a time I could recall those things. Now, my brain is mush. If you want scriptures then let me know. I will get them. Here is what the bible says about judgement.
Christians are forgiven. As far as the East is from the West so are our sins, cast even unto the deepest seas. We know that is an expression, meaning the Christian is truly forgiven. It's as if sin never happened. Now we have the Holy Spirit here to guide us "into all truth" We know Christ IS the truth. We "hear" that little voice, our hearts are tugged whenever sin is present and we are confronted with a choice. We then choose according to our will. The Christian is being judged by God now, daily, as the holy spirit guides us. How else could those dead in Christ be resurrected right into heaven? Would God be mean enough to allow some to come to heaven only to be judged and then cast them away?! No. Never. Remember in Revelations Satan goes before God to condemn the Christians and it says the Book of Life is opened and their names were found written there? God will say, "What sin?" for the bible tells us he will remember our sins no more. "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ" At the day of judgement God sees no sin in his Christians but only the blood of Christ. Just as in the old testament, death passed by the house whose doorpost was stained with the blood of the slain lamb. For those whose names are not written in the book, judgement will take place after the resurrection of all sinners including the dead in sin. "That great and terrible day of the Lord" as John the revelator called it. Those in sin will be judged individually, but in God's way and time. I believe it will all happen in a moment's time. Each one at the same time being "reminded" of their sins of how they rejected God. It is not two judgements, but consider God's timing, it is all A Day of judgement.
As for the fire, according to John in Revelations, he saw a literal fire, an all consuming fire, where sin is swallowed up, burned away, in the presence of holiness. God himself.
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I don't believe that these fires are literal fires, -- Joan, 05:19:44 02/18/08 Mon [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
and I think that's where we are parting. The unquenchable fire is eternal--by definition and because it says that the punishment is eternal. Now obviously, to me anyway :), this isn't a literal fire. This is just one of the many literary techniques the writers used.
Joan
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Joan -- Catie, 06:51:41 02/18/08 Mon [1] (h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net/71.28.8.78)
Remember, here on earth God will set up his new Jerusalem, heaven. He can not stand in the presence of sin. Fire purifies, cleanses. The holiness of God, the very sight of him will cause a pure fire to burn away sin. John in Revelations saw as it were "a lake of fire". If all sin is being destroyed and you were trying to describe what you saw, you might use that term, "a lake of fire." for all sin is being consumed at once. We know that death, hell, and Satan, all sin, are cast into the lake of fire.
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Re: Joan -- Joan, 15:00:37 02/18/08 Mon [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
What is eternal punishment?
It sounds as if you're saying that those "in Hell" will have their sins "burned away". I don't believe that. I think that the eternal punishment is eternal seperation from God. Again, I'm not talking about literal fire. I still think that's where our views start to diverge. It seems that you think of this fire as a literal thing.
Joan
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Joan -- Catie, 09:44:36 02/18/08 Mon [1] (h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net/71.28.8.78)
One main element we are not addressing, one which you have probably guessed by now, is that I don't believe a person who dies goes immediately to heaven. So of course with that belief it would have to be obvious that I certainly don't believe anyone is in "hell" at this point. I believe when one dies, they are dead until the resurrection. Their spirit, which is the very breath of God, goes back to God. (spirit means breath) It is God Almighty's breath. Where else would God's own breath go?! Spirit and soul are not the same. It requires a body (mind) and a spirit (breath), to become a living soul. Just as God took dust to create Adam, then he breathed into him from his own breathe, then "Man became a living soul". All living things are the result of a "God-breathed" action. When we die, the breath of life goes out. It is in safe keeping with God where it was before we were formed in our MOther's wombs. The body goes back to "dust" in original form as God intended. While it goes through this process, the dead have no knowledge of anything. More than 79 verses new and old testament speak of death as a "sleep" state, that the dead have no knowledge, that the dead do not praise God, and even mentions King David "sleeps". If King David, a man after God's own heart, isn't in heaven, how could we expect others to be?! When Christ returns, graves will open, for Christians, God will have created a new body, one that never hurts or dies, "then the mortal shall put on immortality." Only Christ and God, and his angels are immortal. Until then, no one is in heaven except those the scriptures speak of being transformed, by-passed the sting of death and were taken directly by God to heaven. Some speak at funerals of death as a "Promotion" for a Christian. They have a wrong image of what God planned for man. It's not a promotion but the final triumph. It was never God's intention that man die. Sin caused man to die. But we don't pass from this life right into heaven. We must have a new body. Death is but the final triumph over sin. "OH grave where is your victory, or death where is your sting?" Death does not triumph over the Christian. Satan thought he had won the battle, but God had a plan from the beginning, that all who would believe upon his son would have everlasting life.
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Death -- Joan, 15:07:17 02/18/08 Mon [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
"More than 79 verses new and old testament speak of death as a "sleep""
Didn't Jesus' death on the cross conquer death?
We do agree that no impure thing can be in the pressence of God. Since most of us die w/ some sin, there must be some post-death purification. Seeing God can't be that, since nothing impure can be w/ God, not even until the impurity "burns" away.
"When Christ returns, graves will open,"
What about all the OT people? And what about all the other people on Earth since then?
Catholics don't believe that only Christians will go to Heaven.
What does your church teach about non-Christians and Heaven. What does it teach about Catholics and Heaven?
Joan
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Re: Death -- Catie, 16:38:38 02/18/08 Mon [1] (h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net/71.28.8.78)
"Didn't Jesus' death on the cross conquer death?"
It surely did!
Without sin man would never have died. Satan told a lie to Eve. "If you eat of the fruit you surely won't die." Welp, she took the bait. Satan then held power over mankind. Man did die. So God sent his son to conquer death. When Christ died, he took the power of death and the grave away from Satan. It means we don't have to remain dead, eternally. That's why death is a sleep for the Christian.
The veil of the Holy of holies was torn the hour Christ died. That meant no more sacrifice was necessary as was the custom at the ark of the covenant. It meant Christ became the slain lamb forever more. He died that we might live.
Everyone, who has ever lived, even from OT, unless they were transformed; ie: Enoch & Elijay (and yes even Moses) who never saw death; are in the ground awaiting resurrection.
"What does your church teach about non-Christians and Heaven. What does it teach about Catholics and Heaven? "
The BIBLE teaches all who ask forgiveness of sin and live the life God has asked us to live, keep his commandments, (remember, the greatest of these is love) regardless of denomination, sex, creed, national origin,-will inherit eternal life in heaven with God. If we love God we WILL keep his commandments. It is our choice. Christ said I am the way- the truth- and the life. If we seek truth we will find it.
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