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Date Posted: 10:03:43 11/23/09 Mon
Author: muppetmel
Subject: Linda, from below...

http://www.voy.com/212585/1702.html

I thought Hannity looked the fool. It's all about our own perspective.

More than it being about “perspective,” it’s about political ideology. I agree with Hannity, so I thought he did great. I completely disagree with Michael Moore, his tactics and his agenda-driven film blogs masquerading as documentaries. Even he has admitted he manipulates the truth for his films. Either way, YMMV.

Having said that, I am not in support of Obama right now, I am totally opposed to his continuing the war in Afghanistan. I am very disappointed about this.

Well isn’t this the double standard. Where are the cries of “baby killer” and “war criminal” leveled at George W. Bush throughout his presidency. I appreciate that you are disappointed, but where’s the outcry?

On health care, I know you work in the profession in Canada. I have personal experience with my MIL living and dying in the US. I think their system sucks big time.

My husband’s family is all in the U.S. They get the health care they need via Medicaid. Are a lot of people underinsured or not insured? Absolutely. A 2,000 page bill that no one can understand is not the way to go about reform. Behind the scenes meetings excluding other stakeholders is not the way to go about it. Ram-rodding legislation through to make your mark and your legacy as a one-term president is not the way to go about it. What is wrong with taking your time, bringing all parties to the table and hammering out REAL reform that will help ALL Americans?

Is ours perfect? No. Is it better than the US? Yes, a thousand times yes.

No it’s not. The U.S. has the best quality health care in the world. The reform that is needed is to bring more people into it and seriously revamping Medicaid. Our system is ENORMOUSLY expensive. It is not free, as those without limited understanding of "national public health care" seem to believe. It costs taxpayers dearly. My taxes go up, and up and up to pay for it, while non-taxpayers reap the benefit of our "free system." So, if it's so great, why is it next to impossible to get a family doc in southern Ontario, the most populous region in Canada? Why are they setting new practice standards for nurses to help them deal with the untenable situation of having to care for patients in hospital corridors?

Roy Romanow advocated that we preserve and protect our universal health care system but he stated clearly that its cost was not sustainable and that it needed reform. So our governments at all levels are trying to bring down wait times in ER, access to cancer treatment within a safe timeframe, better access to cardiac care, and trying to stem the flow of Canadians hopping the border to pay for health services they can’t get here without lengthy wait times.

I understand from polling that most Americans would like healthcare. Apparently most Fox news people would not like them to have it. I don't get why. It is the dumbest argument I have ever witnessed.

First of all, calling the debate a “dumb argument” is shameful and inflammatory and beneath you. Secondly, no one -- least of all Fox (and I listen to them and watch them daily) -- says health reform isn’t desperately needed in the U.S. The issue is and always has been how you go about reform and what form it will take. Do not perpetuate the lie that conservatives want to block health reform. They don’t. They want to be a party to the discussion and they don’t want an unintelligible bill shoved down their throats.

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[> I am not disagreeing with you about the probs in our system -- Linda, 10:38:32 11/23/09 Mon [1]

And in spite of those problems it is still better than the US system. I am not sure how you can watch Fox and get what you got about them wanting more Americans to have health care, the pundits I have seen are not in support of universal health care, and unfortunately I don't think the Obama plan covers it either. So I have issues with Obama on this and on the war, and I think one can disagree with one's leaders, just like here, even if it is the party you support.

I travel extensively in the US with my work, and people there are not necessarily Obama supporters but they would like universal access to health care. I do think it is a dumb argument to argue against that (not sure how that is shameful and inflammatory, and therefore it is clearly not beneath me!). But I will listen more carefully to Fox pundits now, because maybe I have not been understanding their points of view. Maybe they do want universal health care.

BTW, I also am not a Michael Moore fan, and I also think it is inappropriate to call his films docs. He should be upfront, but he's like anyone else, presenting his viewpoint at the expense of presenting the facts. There's a lot of that in the media. And I still thought Hannity looked foolish, in spite of that.

I am trying to pay close attention to the arguments but I see that this issue is very much landing on party lines with the media, I just don't think it is with the citizens.

I think I can be disappointed in Obama and not have to call him a baby-killer or war criminal. But if he keeps lying to Americans about Afghanistan I may change my mind.

I pay 45% in income tax. That's a lot. But I still agree with public system. I have never met a Canadian who doesn't. That doesn't mean we shouldn't improve the system, and reduce costs where possible.

I think the US, even under Obama, is at risk of collapse. They keep talking about themselves as the Super Power and Leader of the Free World. History shows us that Empires fall.


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[> [> As it relates to Obama, we're on the same page .... -- muppetmel, 10:54:50 11/23/09 Mon [1]

I am not sure how you can watch Fox and get what you got about them wanting more Americans to have health care, the pundits I have seen are not in support of universal health care, and unfortunately I don't think the Obama plan covers it either. So I have issues with Obama on this and on the war, and I think one can disagree with one's leaders, just like here, even if it is the party you support.

The conservative view would be not to pay for a universal health care system funded by tax payer dollars, precisely what we have in Canada, because only a percentage would be footing the bill and the rest would be in for a "free ride." Plus, it is enormously expensive here in Canada, with about 10 times less the population.

The conservative view would be to reform the insurance system to make sure the public gets the coverage they need and signed on for. IMHO, the insurance industry needs to focus less on profit and more on quality care.

The conservative view would be it's every person's responsibility to take care of themselves and move away from an expensive nanny state. Coverage would be for catastrophic illness but not for day-to-day care. They want their insurance plans but they want plans that ensure coverage when they need it and that they get what they are promised.

The conservative view would be less government intervention in their lives because their health care is between them and their physicians, not some government bureaucrat stepping in to manage their care and determine what gets treated and what doesn't. That DOES happen in Canada. Check out what's going on in nursing homes, where we're fighting the government for more than 1 bath a week for residents and more than 1 hour of RN care per resident per day. What does so little care time mean to our nursing home residents? Hours trussed into chairs in dirtied diapers. It happens. It happened to *MY* father right here in Ontario.

The bottom line is, you can't look to the Canadian system to fix what ails the U.S. system at 10 times the population if we can't even afford to sustain it here. And we can't look to the U.S. system to start privatizing all our services so that a bottom line determines what care is available.

Both systems need reform. Neither system's blue print will work for our respective nations.

And Linda, I urge you watch Fox a little more than you do if you really want to understand their perspective. You don't have it right.


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[> Rasmussen Reports Support of Health Care Plan Falls to New Low -- Hogarth, 13:51:05 11/23/09 Mon [1]

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform

Support for Health Care Plan Falls to New Low
Monday, November 23, 2009

Just 38% of voters now favor the health care plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats. That’s the lowest level of support measured for the plan in nearly two dozen tracking polls conducted since June.

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 56% now oppose the plan.

Only 16% now believe passage of the plan will lead to lower health care costs. Nearly four times as many (60%) believe the plan will increase health care costs. Most (54%) also believe passage of the plan will hurt the quality of care.


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[> Muppy, just one little thing -- Carrie, 07:49:19 11/24/09 Tue [1]

And let me start by saying that some of the things you've said about the Canadian system have made me re-think a little bit my beliefs about what we need down here.

However, this: "Coverage would be for catastrophic illness but not for day-to-day care." is one of the things that is driving me crazy about this debate. I work as an attorney helping people to get Social Security disability benefits. I would say that a majority of my clients probably could be working but for the fact that they have an illness, like diabetes or mental health problems, that wouldn't be considered "catastrophic." They would likely be able to "take care of themselves" if they could get the day-to-day care that they need.

Technically, anyone down here can get healthcare if they really need it. They just go to the ER and get treated if they are really manic, or if they have diabetic ketoacidosis, or if they have a seizure and knock some teeth out. Would it be amazing if they would have coverage to pay for the thousands of dollars worth of bills they'll have from that ER visit? Yes. But what would be even better is if they were able to get a baseline of medical care that would allow them to not even need to go to the ER or urgent care because their illnesses would be under better control.

As I see it, that's the problem with our system right now. We need to focus more on taking care of people with illnesses *before* they have problems requiring a trip to the emergency room. If I have to pay more in taxes to make sure that people who need help can get it, so be it. I'm willing to do that. I probably wouldn't have felt that way before I took this job, but having seen what I have in the past two years, I think that some drastic changes have to be made and I'm willing to do my part to help.

And, one more thing: IMHO, anyone who thinks that there isn't an insurance company goon (read: bureaucrat) standing in between a person and their doctor right now is delusional.


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[> [> That's not one little thing!!!! ;-D -- muppetmel, 13:05:45 11/24/09 Tue [1]

Technically, anyone down here can get healthcare if they really need it. They just go to the ER and get treated if they are really manic, or if they have diabetic ketoacidosis, or if they have a seizure and knock some teeth out.

That's good. No one should be turned away EVER, especially over the issue of ability to pay. To me, it's far more costly to the system to have untreated illnesses and contagious diseases that are not monitored than to send someone packing because they can't pay.

Would it be amazing if they would have coverage to pay for the thousands of dollars worth of bills they'll have from that ER visit? Yes. But what would be even better is if they were able to get a baseline of medical care that would allow them to not even need to go to the ER or urgent care because their illnesses would be under better control.

Yes, but how is this going to be paid for? That's the question. IMHO,your government has vastly under represented the cost of universal health care for the U.S. as set out in the behemoth bill no one can decipher, and has glossed over how it will be paid for. Like Linda, I'm in the 45 per cent tax bracket with virtually NO tax breaks. Lots of people are in my boat. So what have they done here in Ontario? Each year, more and more and more medical services that were once funded under the Ontario Health Insurance Plan (OHIP), which is the provincial branch of our national public health care system, are now delisted. Yep, you heard that right. Taken off the list of insured services and you now have to pay out of pocket for them.

All I am saying is slow down and work this through with ALL parties at the table, and that includes patient and health care advocates, or you will be going down the road to financial ruin. What's your unemployment rate at now? 10.4 per cent and climbing. Obama's economic "solutions" like the stimulus plan, buyouts and cash for clunkers has not helped your middle class. You need to proceed with caution and consider health care and not plow through a bill that no one can understand, or you will find yourself still unable to pay for your medical insurance.

I'd be worried if I were you.

As I see it, that's the problem with our system right now. We need to focus more on taking care of people with illnesses *before* they have problems requiring a trip to the emergency room.

Agreed very much so. Illness and disease prevention. Management of chronic illness. Care in the home. But you need the care providers and the infrastructure. The best of our system is failing because, as an example, doctors don't find it affordable to practice family medicine. Nurses can't deal with excessive patient volumes and increasingly complex care demands and are burning out, are sick and injured from the physical and mental demands of their jobs, or are retiring early. Guess which labour group is the sickest and most injured group in Canada of all occupations? If you said, "nurses," you'd be right.

If I have to pay more in taxes to make sure that people who need help can get it, so be it. I'm willing to do that.

Carrie, as I said I'm in a 45 per cent tax bracket. I have the cadillac of benefits coverages, including dental (no longer covered by our public health plan) and vision (no longer covered by our public health plan), etc., and I can top up my extended health coverage if I need to. But guess what, I'm virtually drowning in red ink because I can't afford the high cost of living in Toronto anymore. I can't afford the taxes and I can't afford the rent. It is COSTLY to live here. And lucky me -- I have a union job with job security!

I probably wouldn't have felt that way before I took this job, but having seen what I have in the past two years, I think that some drastic changes have to be made and I'm willing to do my part to help.

I agree reform needs to happen on both sides of the border, but "universal" health care is not the panacea you think it is. And what about all those undocumented workers in the U.S. that already draw on your resources. Are you happy that your tax dollars will extend to their medical coverage?

And, one more thing: IMHO, anyone who thinks that there isn't an insurance company goon (read: bureaucrat) standing in between a person and their doctor right now is delusional.

Well as I said, and as I've heard Mark Levin, Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh say, reform is critical -- just not Obama's proposal for reform.

Your middle America mobsters (Just call me "the Mangler") have been trying to say via town hall meetings and tea parties that they want to keep their health care coverage and they want to be able to determine what it entails. They just don't want government meddling in it and they don't want someone telling them how to spend their hard earned dollars. I sure can relate to that.


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