Victor Glass wtf are you? -- C6 Firebird Forum

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Date Posted: 15:19:38 04/04/02 Thu
Author: A little more educated.....
Subject: Victor Glass wtf are you?
In reply to: Victor Glass 's message, "Lutz's "GTO"" on 15:49:31 03/06/02 Wed

*How could a so-called "car guy" think a big dumpy Cavalier is a Pontiac GTO just because it has rear wheel drive and a Chevy engine?*

Big Dumpy Cavalier? It isnt even a cavalier, the cavaier is a front wheel drive vehicle! To put it in your terms: how could a so called "car guy" think that a front wheel drive vehicle is the same as a rear wheel drive vehicle? The chassis engineering involved is vastly different. If it were that simple Pontiac wouldnt need to go overseas to get a rear wheel drive vehicle, they would just change what they have.

Unfortunately you epitomise the arrogant yank. Fair enough use the comment that it cant be an American legend because it isnt built over here...but dont rag on a design because you dont understand it. Using the emotion of a previous legend to back up your comments is a sign of weakness. Fact of the matter is, the GTS would blow the doors off any GM/Pontiac product (other than the Corvette of course, due to engine/chassis detuning.

I bet your one of the people that thinks you have stuck it up the Japanese because the new Blazer/Envoy swept SUV of the year honors......what you dont realise is that it was designed by ISUZU. Maybe you should give the SUV of the year award to ISUZU for coming up with a winning combination.

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Replies:

[> [> Re: Victor Glass wtf are you? -- realist, 17:04:06 04/10/02 Wed

I've heard a couple of B.S. lines from a minority (I think) of Aussies in the past few days on here along the lines of:

1. Holden wouldn't wait for GM to develop the LS6 (for the GTS Manaro) so they told the Americans to "fuc" off and developed a 402 HP version of the LS1...

B.S. - John Lingenfelter did it... and anyone with a Vortec supercharger bolt on kit can make more than that.

I've heard however that the "kick ass" 300kw (I love that... easy to tell how many light bulbs it could run) has grenaded, in it's infancy, at a rate of 30%. By the way, could I buy Edelbrock heads for my 455 and say that I developed the motor myself? Maybe down under that logic works.

2. The Holden Manaro is much better designed throughout than any of its GM stablemates...

Again B.S. - Who developed the LS1, LS6, 350 and any other engine ever to hit a Manaro? General Motors of course... current design and manufacturing practices at GM dictates that Holden (a GM company) far from designs their cars from "the ground up". The economics of this equasion and the cross divisional use of various components (engines, drivetrains suspensions etc.) should make the relationship painfully obvious.

Look, I like Mad Max movies (and his Manaro) just as much as the next guy... I also think that the peeps at the main poncho teepee were sleepwalking 'till rather reciently... The Manaro looks like a nice car and I admire Holden for pushing the design. I also think that the chicks on baywatch Australia are hot. I like a nice shrimp on the barbie with a Sam Adams like anyone else (sorry Fosters just dosent cut it). But lets cut the cr*p if you pull the US engineering of the manaro you wouldnt even have a donkey cart...

Now stay inside when its too hot for the birds to fly - heat stroke leads to brain damage.

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[> [> [> A few Facts -- A Disgusted Australian, 17:22:51 04/11/02 Thu

In reply to the supposed realist....lets keep it real...
First off to debunk this statement *Again B.S. - Who developed the LS1, LS6, 350 and any other engine ever to hit a Manaro?* there was a 253 Ci V8 (AUSTRALIAN DESIGNED)that was dropped in the Monaros from 1969 onwards.
Also I would like to understand how you come to the conclusion that because of cross-polination every car that is designed in a GM subsidary is based on an American design. The Monaro (apart from its Chevrolet Engine and Drivetrain) was not designed using American sourced technology. What 4 door American car from the GM stable is currently (or was ever) offered in Rear Wheel drive with IRS?
Fair enough if someone is claiming that HSV redeveloped the LS1 that is a little ridiculous I will give you that. Your little crack about Kw as a measure of power is also rather off base, in what way is the measure of 'power' in kw incorrect?
Not all chassis that are bolted to the bodies of GM made vehicles are designed in the USA, for example most of GM Europes chassis are designed and developed in GM Europe and not in the USA.
*But lets cut the cr*p if you pull the US engineering of the manaro you wouldnt even have a donkey cart...* What US engineering are you pertaining to? the Engine only? if that is the case then fair enough...If you take that over to the chassis then you are totally off base, the Monaro is a rear wheel drive vehicle with a chassis design that is not US sourced or originated, the IRS was not US sourced or derived and neither was the STRUT sprung front end.
I am not knocking US engineering, I would buy an American car over any Rice burner anyday, but I am disgusted when I see the bashing of a product out of Australia based on the observations of someone who has probably never ever driven a Holden (let allone a Monaro)...
P.S. Mad Max never drove a Monaro...He drove a Ford Falcon XB Coupe police car, and his personal transportation was a red Holden HJ Sandman Panel Van.

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[> [> [> [> Re: A few Facts -- Jim Tracy, 00:16:52 04/17/02 Wed

>Aussie, with all due respect, I grew up in the era of the GTO and when you were on the road at a stop light and a GTO came rolling up beside you the first thing you noticed was the styling that set it apart from every other muscle car of that era. It looked like an animal ready to attack. The next thing you noticed was the gutteral sound of the engine even at idle. The next thing you noticed was the apprehension you felt at being next to the beast before the light changed. As the light changed you felt an exhilaration as the combination of beauty, sound and power left you and all the other drivers at the stop light in it's tail lights. Based on what I've seen of the Monaro on various sites unless GM does a major overhaul from a styling standpoint this will be just a case where GM has found a low cost platform that will enable it to slap a GTO label on and sell 20 to 30,000 cars for one year. The people like me who never owned one but always wanted to will see this as an easy way for GM to make a quick buck and again tarnish the name of a great car like they did in the early 1970s. I would love to see the GTO come back and now that I can afford one, I would surely buy one if GM comes out with the real thing.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: A few Facts -- ?, 14:58:57 04/19/02 Fri

It wasnt in dispute that Victor had driven or seen a GTO, what was in question was that particular persons right to rubbish something he had never driven or actually seen in real life. I have myself seen BOTH cars, I have never at any point seen fit to Rubbish the GTO. I was merely offended at the persons right to rubbish something he knew very little about. Not only was the current Monaro rubbished but so were all previous versions. If you look at it from my point of view, the Monaro holds the same level of passion in an Australian's eyes as the GTO does for an American.
Why did you feel the need to say "with all due respect?" you were in no way disagreeing with what was said...

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: A few Facts -- FrazLS1, 14:23:32 04/24/02 Wed

>>Aussie, with all due respect, I grew up in the era of
>the GTO and when you were on the road at a stop light
>and a GTO came rolling up beside you the first thing
>you noticed was the styling that set it apart from
>every other muscle car of that era. It looked like an
>animal ready to attack. The next thing you noticed
>was the gutteral sound of the engine even at idle.
>The next thing you noticed was the apprehension you
>felt at being next to the beast before the light
>changed. As the light changed you felt an
>exhilaration as the combination of beauty, sound and
>power left you and all the other drivers at the stop
>light in it's tail lights. Based on what I've seen of
>the Monaro on various sites unless GM does a major
>overhaul from a styling standpoint this will be just a
>case where GM has found a low cost platform that will
>enable it to slap a GTO label on and sell 20 to 30,000
>cars for one year. The people like me who never owned
>one but always wanted to will see this as an easy way
>for GM to make a quick buck and again tarnish the name
>of a great car like they did in the early 1970s. I
>would love to see the GTO come back and now that I can
>afford one, I would surely buy one if GM comes out
>with the real thing.

Theres already quite a few Monaros and factory holden GTS coupes that are sporting the usual modifications around sydney area and sound like caged animal so my gf says. I'll step on people to have my deposit in first for the GTO. Keep going on about your ethics of GTOs by time you have it figured out aussie know about real cars they will be powered by a fuel cell :)

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: A few Facts -- Wait and see, 15:47:25 05/31/02 Fri

...if GM comes out with the "Real Thing" ... Interesting concept.
What was the "Real Thing" that made a GTO. Seams like back in '64 someone took a tempest coupe, and under the table slid a freakin big old V8 engine into it and made history. There was no GTO style (it was a tempest with a badge) what there was was raw power, V8, rwd, manual trans avail, in a contemporary coupe.
Flash forward a few decades ... GM has now found a "new" idea ... Take the best contemporary coupe you can find, and slam in a big old North American V8 engine, to give you raw power, RWD, manual trans avail, in a coupe. Pretty close to the original idea.
What isn't like the old days is this car will reportedly outhandle and outbrake anything from the past ... and with the LS1 engine it will probably outrun em in a staight away too.
As far as who takes credit (or blame) for the car ... lets see ... North American Engine, Australian engineering, based off an Opel architecture ...Sounds like everybody plays here.
And for all the "american" made snobs .... those F-bodies start their lives now-a-days in the land of the great white north, labbats, and hockey (as do a fair share of LS1 engines).

If you can't see the facts ... you may lived in the time of the origanl GTO, but it doesn't sound like you "Grew Up" much at all.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: A few Facts -- JoeMustang, 10:00:30 01/07/04 Wed

Concerned about buying American. Stick with the Mustang, they're built in Michigan and they still look like a Mustang (not a Cavalier)

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[> [>

Re: Victor Glass wtf are you? -- Shawn Kniesly, 11:08:12 12/22/02 Sun

>*How could a so-called "car guy" think a big dumpy
>Cavalier is a Pontiac GTO just because it has rear
>wheel drive and a Chevy engine?*
>
>Big Dumpy Cavalier? It isnt even a cavalier, the
>cavaier is a front wheel drive vehicle! To put it in
>your terms: how could a so called "car guy" think that
>a front wheel drive vehicle is the same as a rear
>wheel drive vehicle? The chassis engineering involved
>is vastly different. If it were that simple Pontiac
>wouldnt need to go overseas to get a rear wheel drive
>vehicle, they would just change what they have.
>
>Unfortunately you epitomise the arrogant yank. Fair
>enough use the comment that it cant be an American
>legend because it isnt built over here...but dont rag
>on a design because you dont understand it. Using the
>emotion of a previous legend to back up your comments
>is a sign of weakness. Fact of the matter is, the GTS
>would blow the doors off any GM/Pontiac product (other
>than the Corvette of course, due to engine/chassis
>detuning.
>
>I bet your one of the people that thinks you have
>stuck it up the Japanese because the new Blazer/Envoy
>swept SUV of the year honors......what you dont
>realise is that it was designed by ISUZU. Maybe you
>should give the SUV of the year award to ISUZU for
>coming up with a winning combination.
Okay,some parts of what the "Realist" has to say is true. In no way possible, is the Holden Manero a CAVALIER/GRAND AM body style. They are a front wheel driven, 4 or 6 cylinder car!? The Holden is a rear wheel driven, V-8 car! The American car industry is falling due to foreign imports, but GM is getting smart. It is appealing to that side of the market that likes those types of cars, and keeping it a American branded vehicle. If Pontiac did not get the GTO (aka Holden), Chevy would have got an Aussie version of an ElCamino to bring over. This is a fact stated by John Sawruk (Pontiac Engineer, and Consultant to Mr. Lutz). Since GM is only allowed to bring over 1 foreign design, Chevy will have to wait a while now. The only reason any other GM car is "shadowed" by the Corvette is because GM Corporate will not allow it's sports car to be pushed out of the Lime Light by a cheaper sports version like the Camaro/Trans Am/GTO. It is very possible these days to take a Camaro, and Trans Am, and now the GTO to out perform a Vette! To do so, would kill the Corvette sales. I am ready for a new breath of fresh air in Pontiac, and Lutz is the guy to do it! just wait and see when the GTO hits the market.....only 18,000 will be available the first production year in the fall of 2003 for the '04 model GTO!

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[> [> [> Re: Victor Glass wtf are you? -- JoeMustang, 11:22:39 01/07/04 Wed

I believe he was referring to the style not the platform. It looks like a over sized Cavalier