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Date Posted: 12:27:08 03/21/02 Thu
Author: Òðåéòÿê
Subject: Re: Êîíòðàð´óìåíòè íà "êîçàöüêèé Òàë³áàí"
In reply to: Ëåì 's message, "Re: Êîíòðàð´óìåíòè íà "êîçàöüêèé Òàë³áàí"" on 12:41:48 03/18/02 Mon

--- Îñü ãåáðå¿ ó êîæíîìó áàíàëüíîìó ìîðäîáî¿ ëàäí³ áà÷èòè õîëîêîñò ³ íàö³îíàëüíó òðàãåä³þ, à òè, íàâïàêè, áàíàë³çóºø íàâ³òü ñåðéîçí³ ðå÷³. Ìîæå, òîìó âîíè ìàþòü êîëîñàëüíèé íàö³îíàëüíèé ì³ô ³ æèâóòü ó â³÷íîñò³, ÷åðåç òèñÿ÷îë³òòÿ, à ìè ä³éøëè äî 21 ñò., òàê ³ íå ñôîðìóâàâøè íîðìàëüíî¿ íàö³¿, ³ âåñü ÷àñ ï³ä çàãðîçîþ àñèì³ëÿö³¿:)
Íå áóäåìî áðàòè æèä³â ñîá³ çà ïðèêëàä :) Âçàãàë³, ÿêùî òåáå äóæå ö³êàâèòü æèä³âñüêèé ðåöåïò âèæèâàííÿ ÿê íàö³¿, òî ÿ ìîæó òîá³ âêàçàòè ïîä³áíèé ðåöåïò äëÿ óêðà¿íö³â, àëå öå ïîòðåáóº é íåâåëèêî¿ äèñêóñ³¿ ïðî æèä³â, áî äîâåäåòüñÿ ÷àñòî ïîð³âíþâàòè é ïîñèëàòèñÿ íà ¿õí³é äîñâ³ä, ïî äåÿêèõ ì³ñöÿõ äåòàë³çóâàòè, à òè æ ðàí³øå çàÿâèâ, ùî íå áàæàºø ãîâîðèòè ïðî æèä³â :)

--- æ³íêà ó â³éñüêîâîìó òàáîð³ ìîãëà á óñï³øíî áîðù³ âàðèòè ³ âàðåíèêè ë³ïèòè:)

Ïðèïóñòèìî, âîíà áóäå ë³ïèòè âàðåíèêè âäåíü, à ùî æ áóäå âíî÷³? Îñîáëèâî òîä³, êîëè ÷àñ âèäàâñÿ â³äíîñíî ñïîê³éíèé, é êîçàêè ïîñò³éíî áåíêåòóþòü? Ãà? Ùî áóäå?

--- ѳ÷ - ñâÿùåííå áðàòñòâî, ñàêðàëüíå êîëî, êóäè çàêàçàíî âõ³ä ñòîðîíí³ì.

Öå òè ñüîãîäí³ âñå ñàêðàë³çóºø. À òîä³, êîëè ùîéíî ç"ÿâèëàñÿ ѳ÷, "ñàêðàë³çàö³ºþ" í³õòî íå ïåðåéìàâñÿ, çàòå äóæå äáàëè ïðî áîºçäàòí³ñòü â³éñüêà ³ âëàñíó áåçïåêó âçàãàë³.

--- ÷è ìóñèëè ãåáðå¿, ùî õîäèëè ç â³éñüêîì, âèõðåùóâàòèñÿ? ×è áóëî öå îáîâ"ÿçêîâèì?

ͳ, çâè÷àéíî! Æèä, ùî âèõðåñòèâñÿ, âæå íå áóäå æèäîì.  òîìó ÷èñë³ ç ïîãëÿäó ³íøèõ æèä³â. ³äòàê éîãî âàðò³ñòü ÿê ñïðèòíîãî ï³äïðèºìöÿ â³ä òîãî ñèëüíî ïîñòðàæäàº, ì"ÿêî êàæó÷è :)

--- êîçàöòâî áóëî ìóëüòèåòí³÷íèì çà ïîõîäæåííÿì

Ìóëüòèåòí³÷íñòü áóëà ïðèòàìàííà Íèçîâîìó êîçàöòâó íà ïî÷àòêîâîìó åòàï³. Òîä³, ì³æ ³íøèì, ÷èìàëî ïîëÿê³â (äî ðå÷³, ðåâíèõ êàòîëèê³â) áóëî íà ѳ÷³, à äåÿê³ ïîðîáèëèñÿ âàòàæêàìè é íàâ³òü ãåòüìàíàìè. Õî÷à, ãàäàþ, óêðà¿íñüêèé åëåìåíò òàì çàâæäè ïåðåâàæàâ. Ñêàæèìî, 80-90%. Ùî, äî ðå÷³, ïåðåâèùóº â³äñîòîê óêðà¿íö³â ó íèí³øí³é Óêðà¿í³ :) ϳçí³øå öÿ ìóëüòèåòí³÷í³ñòü ïîòðîõè ñõîäèëà íàí³âåöü, îñîáëèâî ïî Õìåëüíè÷÷èí³. À ïðî ïîëÿê³â íà ѳ÷³ íå éøëîñÿ é â³ä ðàí³øèõ ÷àñ³â. Îòæå, íå òðåáà ïåðåá³ëüøóâàòè ÷èííèê ìóëüòèåòí³÷íîñò³. Äî òîãî æ, ³íøîåòí³÷í³ íàäòî ÷àñòî ïîõîäèëè íå ç ïðàâîñëàâíèõ íàö³é.

--- ßñêðàâèé ïðèêëàä - ßðåìà Âèøíåâåöüêèé.

ßðåìà - öå íàäòî ÿñêðàâèé ïðèêëàä. ßðåìà - öå Ïîñòàòü. Ç íèì ìîæå õ³áà ñàì Õìåëüíèöüêèé ð³âíÿòèñÿ, íàâ³òü íå Êðèâîíîñ. ß ìàâ íà óâàç³ íå ñïîëüùåíèõ-ñêàòîëè÷åíèõ íà òîé ÷àñ ïàí³â-ìàãíàò³â, àëå íàñàìïåðåä äð³áíó øëÿõòó, çíà÷íîþ ì³ðîþ ïîêîçà÷åíó. Ïðèêëàäîì ìîæóòü ñëóãóâàòè ãåòüìàíè Ïðàâîáåðåææÿ ç ïîëüñüêî¿ ðóêè, îñîáëèâî ï³çí³ø³: õî÷áè òîé æå Îñòàï Ãîãîëü. Ïîëüùó âèáðàëè ïðèá³÷íèêè Âèãîâñüêîãî, Áîãóí, íåñëàâíèé ãåòüìàí Òåòåðÿ, à çãàäàé Õàíåíêà, êîòðîãî ïîëÿêè ïîñòàâèëè íà ïðîòèâàãó Äîðîøåíêà - Õàíåíêî ìàâ ÷èìàëî ïðèá³÷íèê³â.

--- ³ñíóº ëåãåíäà

Ëåãåíäà ëåãåíäîþ, àëå ÿê ïèøå Ãåíðèê Ѻíêºâ³÷, ßðåìà ïîìåð od trudow wojennych. ³í íå äåòàë³çóº, áî ñìåðòü íå ãåðî¿÷íà: ïîìåð â³ä çâè÷àéíî¿ õâîðîáè âîºííîãî ÷àñó, õ³áà íå â³ä äèçåíòåð³¿. Àëå: ñèí ßðåìè ñòàâ êîðîëåì! Îñü òîá³ é ïðîêëÿòòÿ... ßðåìà ïîìåð, àëå ³ì"ÿ éîãî æèâå.
Ëåãåíäà çáåðåãëàñÿ òîìó ùî âðåøò³ ïîëÿê³â á³ëüø-ìåíø ïåðåìîãëè, é ìîæíà áóëà ñêëàäàòè ñîá³ ëåãåíäè ïðî ïåðåìîæåíèõ. À ÿêáè ïîëÿêè âñå óñï³øíî ïðèäóøèëè (ÿê ï³çí³øå ãàéäàìàê³â), òî ìîæå á ñüîãîäí³ â Ëóáíÿõ éîãî ïàì"ÿòíèê ñòîÿâ ³ ëåãåíäè áóëè á ³íø³. Ïðèì³ðîì, ïðî Õìåëüíèöüêîãî, ùî çíàâñÿ ç íå÷èñòîþ ñèëîþ ³ ÷åðåç òå çàíàïàñòèâ ñâîþ äóøó...

--- Ïñèõîëîã³ÿ ìàñè, ðîìàíòèêà ïîãðîìó:)

Ïðèáëèçíî òàê. ß ìàâ íà óâàç³ ñàìå îäíó äåòàëü ëþäñüêî¿ ïñèõîëî㳿, òâîº âèçíà÷åííÿ á³ëüø øèðîêå, àëå â ö³ëîìó â³ðíî.

--- ùîäî òàë³áàíó, òî ÿêáè êîçàêè áóëè òàë³áàíîì, òî ÿ á òîä³ áóâ ãîðäèì íàùàäêîì:)

×åêàé, ÿ òàê çðîçóì³â, ùî òè çàïðîïîíóâàâ M³ò ïðî êîçàê³â - ùî âîíè áóëè "ïðàâîñëàâíèì òàë³áàíîì", ùîáè ïîò³ì áóòè "ãîðäèì íàùàäêîì ïðàâîñëàâíèõ òàë³á³â", ÷è íå òàê?

--- Àëå âàì ÷îìóñü íå ïîäîáàºòüñÿ áóòè ãîðäèìè íàùàäêàìè... Òî ïðî êîçàöüêî-áóñóðìàíñüêó äðóæáó, òî ïðî ëþáèõ êàòîëèê³â, òî âçàãàë³ ïðî âàðò³ñòü æ³íî÷îãî æèòòÿ... Íó ïðÿìî íå êîçàêè, à ÿê³ñü ïðîâ³ñíèêè ë³áåðàëüíî¿ äåìîêðàò³¿, â³ðîòåðïèìîñò³ ³ ôåì³í³çìó:)))

Ïðî ôåì³í³çì Ìàêñèì âæå â³äïèñàâ, ñïðàâæí³é ôåì³í³çì ÿêðàç â òîìó ïîëÿãàº, ùîáè æ³íêà ãàðöþâàëà íà ѳ÷³, ç³ çáðîºþ òà íà êîí³, à ïðî íàðîäæåííÿ ä³òåé, ë³ïëåííÿ âàðåíèê³â òà ïðííÿ á³ëèçíè íå äóìàëà íàâ³òü ó ñòðàøíîìó ñí³. Òå, ùî æ³íî÷å æèòòÿ º ö³íííèì òîìó ùî æ³íêà ìóñèòü íàðîäæóâàòè ä³òåé, öå ÿêðàç ïîâíèé ÀÍÒÈôåì³í³çì :)

Ùîäî äðóæáè ç òàòàðàìè: ïåðøèì çàïðèÿòåëþâàâ ç íèìè Õìåëüíèöüêèé (îòæå, ìóñèø â³äë³÷óâàòè ê³íåöü ïðèìàðíîãî "ïðàâîñëàâíîãî òàë³áàíó" ïðèíàéìí³ â³ä Õìåëüíèöüêîãî, ïðîòå: ïåðåä òàòàðàìè áóëè ïðèÿòåë³-ïîëÿêè - çãàéäàé-íî ìóëüòèåòí³÷í³ñòü :)), ç ö³ëêîì ïðàãìàòè÷íèõ ì³ðêóâàíü: õî÷ êîçàöüêà ê³ííîòà é íå áóëà íàñïðàâä³ òàêîþ âæå "íèê÷åìíîþ", ÿê âèñëîâèâñÿ Ìàêñèì, àëå çìàãàòèñÿ ç íàéêðàùîþ ê³ííîòîþ òîãî÷àñíî¿ ªâðîïè - ïîëüñüêîþ - âîíà áóëà íå â çìîç³. Çàòå ðàçîì ç ìîá³ëüíîþ òàòàðñüêîþ ê³ííîòîþ êîçàêè áèëè óñï³øíî ïîëÿê³â. Ì³æ ³íøèì, âñ³ ïîâñòàííÿ ïåðåä Õìåëüíèöüêèì íå çàëó÷èëè òàòàð - é ïðîãðàâàëè ïîëÿêàì, íàòîì³ñòü ðàçîì ç òàòàðàìè êîçàêè òâîðèëè ìàéæå íåïåðåìîæíó àðì³þ. Õìåëüíèöüêèé ïîêàçàâ êîçàêàì øëÿõ äî ñï³ëêè ç òàòàðàìè, é íàäàë³ òàòàðè äóæå ÷àñòî áóâàëè ñîþçíèêàìè êîçàê³â.

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