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Re: Slash does not = Porn -- Slytherin Godess, 20:02:18 12/19/01 Wed (cx362464-a.poria1.az.home.com/24.251.189.84)
>
>Then it is a skanky fic anyway you look at it. And
>porn as well. Duh.
Okay, hello? How can it be porn? Here is the dictionary defenition of Porn:
porn n : illegal activities designed to stimulate sexual desire
See, illegal. Slash isn;t illegal. Slash is about male/male and female/female love/fluff/sex, whatever.
Don't get all homophobic on me here. Most slash stories contain a minimal amount of hard-core sex. There is probably more hard-core NC-17 fics that are heterosexual, in both he HP fandom and many others.
porn = illegal sexual stimulation
slash = relationship between to people of the same sex
See the difference? Good. Slash may not be your cup of tea, but you don't have to accuse it of being porn. And not all slash readers/writers are bisexual or homophobic 'deep down inside' as someone stated in an earlier post.
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Re: Slash does not = Porn -- Kat Corbett, 08:37:11 12/21/01 Fri (adsl-64-108-85-209.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net/64.108.85.209)
>Okay, hello? How can it be porn? Here is the
>dictionary defenition of Porn:
>
>porn n : illegal activities designed to stimulate
>sexual desire
>
>See, illegal. Slash isn;t illegal. Slash is about
>male/male and female/female love/fluff/sex, whatever.
>
>Don't get all homophobic on me here. Most slash
>stories contain a minimal amount of hard-core sex.
>There is probably more hard-core NC-17 fics that are
>heterosexual, in both he HP fandom and many others.
>
>porn = illegal sexual stimulation
>slash = relationship between to people of the same sex
>
>See the difference? Good. Slash may not be your cup of
>tea, but you don't have to accuse it of being porn.
>And not all slash readers/writers are bisexual or
>homophobic 'deep down inside' as someone stated in an
>earlier post.
While I don't believe slash is porn, your definition of porn is a bit fudged. Pornograhy is NOT illegal. Selling it to minors is, but no legal definition of porn depicts it as an illegal activity.
Again, I don't think slash is porn, but it appears as if you based your entire argument on the legality of porn vs. the legality of slash, and that is not the best way to argue it.
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Re: Slash does not = Porn -- Michela Ecks, 18:44:04 12/21/01 Fri (dialup-63.208.71.60.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net/63.208.71.60)
>>porn = illegal sexual stimulation
>>slash = relationship between to people of the same sex
Actually... Slash is stimulating. (I'm just getting a kick out of the thought that having sex is a form of sexual stimulation... and thus possibly illegal.) Slash CAN be erotic and pornographic.
>While I don't believe slash is porn, your definition
>of porn is a bit fudged. Pornograhy is NOT illegal.
>Selling it to minors is, but no legal definition of
>porn depicts it as an illegal activity.
I don't believe slash is porn either. (And the essay I have about Harry Potter slash issue really needs to be revised as it was largely a reaction to only the sexual slash of minors that WB made as they didn't seem to be slamming slash and erotica on the whole, just the stuff that might be construed by some definitions as child porn which is in some places probably illegal.)
>Again, I don't think slash is porn, but it appears as
>if you based your entire argument on the legality of
>porn vs. the legality of slash, and that is not the
>best way to argue it.
Slash can be porn just as het can be porn. You can't say slash isn't porn fan fiction or porn isn't slash fan fiction for all fan fiction that is slash or porn because you can be slash and you can be porn. It's a story by story thing. There are some great authors who write friend stories with slashy over tones but no sex and than you can have your run of the mill almost het fic based on how the author has the characters act, marriage, kids and that whole deal. (The only thing worse than straight characters doing that is slashed characters doing that. *shudder*) Than you can have your porn.
I have no problems with most of slash. I am offended by stories where minors IE those below the age of consent are having sex in a story. I wouldn't write it. I wouldn't read it. I find it offensive and distasteful and if I was in Warner Brother's shoes, I'd probably have already brought suit against fan fiction writers for damage to my trademark. That's just me.
I'm babbling because it's getting late and the day is long. My major concern, trademark aside, are the real legal aspects. There are some states, based on how they have their state laws written regarding child porn, where a real good case could be made that fan fiction featuring fictional characters in sex acts could be a CRIMINAL (as opposed to civil) offense leading to jail time or possible reprecussions to parents of minor writers who write slash featuring minors as those parents could be whapped with child neglect if that was mentioned to the wrong people. I don't see it happening honestly because there hasn't been many cases but considering who is in the White House and some policy shifts that have occurred... *shrug*
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Re: Slash does not = Porn -- Slytherin Godess, 08:12:14 12/22/01 Sat (cx362464-a.poria1.az.home.com/24.251.189.84)
>>>porn = illegal sexual stimulation
>>>slash = relationship between to people of the same
>sex
>
>Actually... Slash is stimulating. (I'm just getting
>a kick out of the thought that having sex is a form of
>sexual stimulation... and thus possibly illegal.)
>Slash CAN be erotic and pornographic.
Ah, kill my dictionary then. It says porn is illegal. *mutters* but still. I was half asleep when I wrote that, and my brain wasn't working clearly. Yes, slash can be stimulating, but not ALL slash is born. I think tha tis the point I was trying to get across. And it irks me that they targeted HP slash as 'kiddie porn' because the het would be to. *grr*
>>While I don't believe slash is porn, your definition
>>of porn is a bit fudged. Pornograhy is NOT illegal.
>>Selling it to minors is, but no legal definition of
>>porn depicts it as an illegal activity.
>
>I don't believe slash is porn either. (And the essay
>I have about Harry Potter slash issue really needs to
>be revised as it was largely a reaction to only the
>sexual slash of minors that WB made as they didn't
>seem to be slamming slash and erotica on the whole,
>just the stuff that might be construed by some
>definitions as child porn which is in some places
>probably illegal.)
>
>>Again, I don't think slash is porn, but it appears as
>>if you based your entire argument on the legality of
>>porn vs. the legality of slash, and that is not the
>>best way to argue it.
>
>Slash can be porn just as het can be porn. You can't
>say slash isn't porn fan fiction or porn isn't slash
>fan fiction for all fan fiction that is slash or porn
>because you can be slash and you can be porn. It's a
>story by story thing. There are some great authors
>who write friend stories with slashy over tones but no
>sex and than you can have your run of the mill almost
>het fic based on how the author has the characters
>act, marriage, kids and that whole deal. (The only
>thing worse than straight characters doing that is
>slashed characters doing that. *shudder*) Than you
>can have your porn.
>
>I have no problems with most of slash. I am offended
>by stories where minors IE those below the age of
>consent are having sex in a story. I wouldn't write
>it. I wouldn't read it. I find it offensive and
>distasteful and if I was in Warner Brother's shoes,
>I'd probably have already brought suit against fan
>fiction writers for damage to my trademark. That's
>just me.
>
>I'm babbling because it's getting late and the day is
>long. My major concern, trademark aside, are the real
>legal aspects. There are some states, based on how
>they have their state laws written regarding child
>porn, where a real good case could be made that fan
>fiction featuring fictional characters in sex acts
>could be a CRIMINAL (as opposed to civil) offense
>leading to jail time or possible reprecussions to
>parents of minor writers who write slash featuring
>minors as those parents could be whapped with child
>neglect if that was mentioned to the wrong people. I
>don't see it happening honestly because there hasn't
>been many cases but considering who is in the White
>House and some policy shifts that have occurred...
>*shrug*
Have I made an idiot out of myself? Probably. But definetly not as much as Mr. Stalker has. *snort* nice selection of names to choose from, indeed.
Slytherin Godess
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Nah, not an idiot -- Michela Ecks, 09:51:51 12/22/01 Sat (dialup-166.90.64.118.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net/166.90.64.118)
>>>>porn = illegal sexual stimulation
>>>>slash = relationship between to people of the same
>>sex
>>
>>Actually... Slash is stimulating. (I'm just getting
>>a kick out of the thought that having sex is a form of
>>sexual stimulation... and thus possibly illegal.)
>>Slash CAN be erotic and pornographic.
>
>Ah, kill my dictionary then. It says porn is illegal.
>*mutters* but still. I was half asleep when I wrote
>that, and my brain wasn't working clearly. Yes, slash
>can be stimulating, but not ALL slash is born. I think
>tha tis the point I was trying to get across. And it
>irks me that they targeted HP slash as 'kiddie porn'
>because the het would be to. *grr*
It's illegal by some standards. That is why you get carded for buying adult material. Ummm... yeah anyway.
Oh, if you want a great dictionary, try onelook.com
>Have I made an idiot out of myself? Probably. But
>definetly not as much as Mr. Stalker has. *snort* nice
>selection of names to choose from, indeed.
Oh, he's still here. He's Kat Corbett or whatever now. Like all stupid idiots, he'll continue his behavior till the amusement ends. You just have to learn to ignore/ban them if they don't do illegal stuff and the death threats on LJ constitute illegal. My own set (I have a set, not one or two) just do their own thing of stunt stapling comments and fake jokes. They get such a kick out of it and it's not illegal, I just let them continue on with it in the privacy of their own stuff since most sane people look and go "Crazy person." Cassie's stalker hasn't quite figured out how IP addresses work based on their posts so they demonstrate extreme stupidity.
As for Warner Brothers, it is hardly the first and last fandom to get nailed for Slash. Several others have gone through it to. I don't sense any real problem though since while they have said this, they haven't taken any real action.
>Slytherin Godess
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Re: Slash does not = Porn -- Darkrose, 14:07:21 02/01/02 Fri (NoHost/155.44.64.87)
>>While I don't believe slash is porn, your definition
>>of porn is a bit fudged. Pornograhy is NOT illegal.
Actually, that depends on your jurisdiction. "Pornography" is actually not a legal category at all. The legal question is whether or not material can be deemed "obscene" (not possessing literary or scientific value according to community standards). Distributing obscene materials to minors is illegal--but what's obscene in San Francisco and what's obscene in Salt Lake City is going to be vastly different.
>I have no problems with most of slash. I am offended
>by stories where minors IE those below the age of
>consent are having sex in a story.
See, I can understand that--but I don't see very much of it happening. Most HP slash authors "age up" the characters to at least 16--which is the age of consent in Great Britain.
Though I do find it a bit amusing that so many people are getting their panties in a bunch about this. *I* certainly didn't wait until I was legal to start having sex...wonder how many of the people complaining did?
I wouldn't write
>it. I wouldn't read it. I find it offensive and
>distasteful and if I was in Warner Brother's shoes,
>I'd probably have already brought suit against fan
>fiction writers for damage to my trademark. That's
>just me.
What WB is worried about is that people will start ranting that "Harry Potter is Gay!" just like they are ranting that JKR is promoting Wicca. And I suppose they can bring suit, but I strongly suspect that their legal staff has figured out that it just isn't worth the time and effort to chase after a bunch of broke young women.
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Re: Slash does not = Porn -- Darkrose took mine :'(, 19:25:29 06/24/02 Mon (spider-ntc-td051.proxy.aol.com/198.81.17.171)
>>>While I don't believe slash is porn, your definition
>>>of porn is a bit fudged. Pornograhy is NOT illegal.
>
>Actually, that depends on your jurisdiction.
>"Pornography" is actually not a legal category at all.
>The legal question is whether or not material can be
>deemed "obscene" (not possessing literary or
>scientific value according to community standards).
>Distributing obscene materials to minors is
>illegal--but what's obscene in San Francisco and
>what's obscene in Salt Lake City is going to be vastly
>different.
>
>>I have no problems with most of slash. I am offended
>>by stories where minors IE those below the age of
>>consent are having sex in a story.
>
>See, I can understand that--but I don't see very much
>of it happening. Most HP slash authors "age up" the
>characters to at least 16--which is the age of consent
>in Great Britain.
>
>Though I do find it a bit amusing that so many people
>are getting their panties in a bunch about this. *I*
>certainly didn't wait until I was legal to start
>having sex...wonder how many of the people complaining
>did?
>
>I wouldn't write
>>it. I wouldn't read it. I find it offensive and
>>distasteful and if I was in Warner Brother's shoes,
>>I'd probably have already brought suit against fan
>>fiction writers for damage to my trademark. That's
>>just me.
>
>What WB is worried about is that people will start
>ranting that "Harry Potter is Gay!" just like they are
>ranting that JKR is promoting Wicca. And I suppose
>they can bring suit, but I strongly suspect that their
>legal staff has figured out that it just isn't worth
>the time and effort to chase after a bunch of broke
>young women.
ok Harry Potter is not gay, nor is JKR promoting wicca!(and I know that you wernt intending that were, but I just had to say something about that) I confess, I enjoy reading the HP slash stories, an No not all slash include porn. To tell you the trouth, I've read about 50 HP slash stories (including my own and my friends) and very few of them have any form of sex or pornography.
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Re: Slash does not (always)= Porn -- Me again, 19:32:37 06/24/02 Mon (spider-ntc-td051.proxy.aol.com/198.81.17.171)
Ok, Harry Potter is not gay, nor is JKR promoting wicca!(and I know that you wernt intending that were, but I just had to say something about that) I confess, I enjoy reading the HP slash stories, an NO not all slash includes porn. To tell you the trouth, I've read about 50 HP slash stories (including my own and my friends) and very few of them have any form of sex or pornography.
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Sex Laws -- Michela Ecks, 19:16:42 12/21/01 Fri (dialup-63.208.71.60.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net/63.208.71.60)
>porn = illegal sexual stimulation
>slash = relationship between to people of the same sex
And relationships in slash are purely non sexual?
But back to babbling on minors, slash and sex.
For the purpose of this, assume that I know that not all slash is porn, not all porn is slash, and not all slash that is also porn (or erotica) features children. I am only referring to the following sub set of stories which I feel, based on Warner Brother's comments, they are the most upset with: stories featuring two minor children of the same sex engaging in sexual activities.
This is a very narrow thing. Now, knowing that I've narrowed it down, please bare with this based on that.
There is some legal question, based on my interpretation of some of the laws I've read as to whether or not the aforementioned material (fictional minor characters engaging in text based sexual activities) is indeed legal. There are various overlapping juristictional issues that make this a very fuzzy issue and some of the terminology is open enough that you could, concievably make the case, that this material is illegal.
(a) describe, depict, express or otherwise deal with matters of sex, drug misuse or addiction, crime, cruelty, violence or revolting or abhorrent phenomena in such a way that they offend against the standards of morality, decency and propriety generally accepted by reasonable adults to the extent that they should not be classified; or
(b) describe or depict in a way that is likely to cause offence to a reasonable adult, a minor who is, or who appears to be, under 16 (whether the minor is engaged in sexual activity or not); or
(c) promote, incite or instruct in matters of crime or violence.
That is Australian National Classification Code's child pornography reference according to this site here.
Now, breaking down Australian law...
(a) describe, depict, express or otherwise deal
Could that describe the material in question? Yes as the fan fiction in question is writing and most writing describes.
with matters of sex, drug misuse or addiction, crime, cruelty, violence or revolting or abhorrent phenomena in such a way that they offend against the standards of morality, decency and propriety generally accepted by reasonable adults to the extent that they should not be classified; or
Would the featuring of minors having sex with other minors be viewed as abhorent? I'd say not all but I think a good case could be made (and I have no legal degree so refute me if you disagree.) that yeah, it is abhorent and WB's reaction pretty much proves that to me.
So yeah, I'd go with based on that definition, fan fiction featuring two fictional minors engaged in sexual activities could be construed as illegal.
But that's only all of Australia and I mentioned overlapping juristional problems? Let's look at Australian State of Victoria's definition of child pornography from the aforementioned link.
means a film, photograph, publication or computer game that describes or depicts a person who is, or who looks like, a minor under 16 engaging in sexual activity or depicted in an indecent manner or context. (Crimes Act, 67A)
See, the publication and describing would probably make this illegal too... We're not talking PICTURES of children engaged in sex. We're talking just descriptions. Fictional I would say might make fan fiction legal since it really isn't looking like a minor... but the fictional thing is about the only thing that I can see that would make fan fiction featuring two minors having sex from being possibly technically illegal. Once again, I'm not a lawyer so I might be interpretting this wrong. If you have more knowledge, let me know as I'd be interested to see if based on that law, you think it would be legal IN THAT JURISTICTION and where in the definition it would be.
Anyway, I could probably find a bunch more examples of laws where it is fuzzy. There are some juristictions where the law is really clear on what is and what is not child porn. The state of Illinois is pretty clear in that this material I've stated above would be legal. (At least to me.) State code says the following:
Sec. 11-20.1. Child pornography.
(a) A person commits the offense of child pornography
who:
(1) films, videotapes, photographs, or otherwise depicts or portrays by means of any similar visual medium or reproduction or depicts by computer any child whom he knows or reasonably should know to be under the age of 18 or any institutionalized severely or profoundly mentally retarded person where such child or institutionalized severely or profoundly mentally retarded person is:
and
(2) with the knowledge of the nature or content thereof, reproduces, disseminates, offers to disseminate, exhibits or possesses with intent to disseminate any film, videotape, photograph or other similar visual reproduction or depiction by computer of any child or institutionalized severely or profoundly mentally retarded person whom the person knows or reasonably should know to be under the age of 18 or to be an institutionalized severely or profoundly mentally retarded person, engaged in any activity described in subparagraphs (i) through (vii) of paragraph (1) of this subsection; or
Anyway, I'm not wanting people to be confused (hence, I should really edit that essay) that Writers University has problems with slash in general or porn in general. It's the narrow sub set of fan fiction featuring minors of the same sex engaged in sexual activity that are the ones where confusion is from. Bleh.
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Re: Sex Laws -- Avocado, 00:58:01 03/25/02 Mon (dsl254-033-103.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net/216.254.33.103)
>Anyway, I'm not wanting people to be confused (hence,
>I should really edit that essay) that Writers
>University has problems with slash in general or porn
>in general. It's the narrow sub set of fan fiction
>featuring minors of the same sex engaged in sexual
>activity that are the ones where confusion is from.
>Bleh.
Actually, Michela, I think the problem may be the "same sex" appearing in the paragraph above. I think the same reasonable standard can be applied to minors of opposite sexes. I think that as long as your position is balanced across the board wrt het/slash pairings, I wouldn't have any problem with it.
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My girlfriend is interested in all kinds of -- toooi (My girlfriend is interested in all kinds of), 11:48:34 02/23/07 Fri (CPE000e08e2204e-CM0018680de5bc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com/74.116.186.208)
Hello My girlfriend is interested in all kinds of sexual experimentation, and she's recently been wondering what it would be like for a woman to take Viagra. I know it is intended to increase bloodflow in a man. What would it do to a woman? Also, what are the side effects? Would they be any different for a woman? And is there any safe and legal way for a woman to obtain Viagra? I'd like to support my girlfriend's curiousity, but I don't want to see her hurt herself. She also show off herself at http://www.bedscam.com
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