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Date Posted: 12:15:17 01/31/00 Mon
Author: bcpcfan
Author Host/IP: NoHost / 208.160.141.135
Subject: Re: GW Reunion
In reply to:
Dropping Pin
's message, "GW Reunion" on 09:32:15 01/31/00 Mon
> JOE- I hear what you're saying about BC being
> self-destructive but so was Elton John(alcohol,drugs).
> Since I live near New York and hear alot about Billy
> Joel, I know he has also chased his own personal
> demons(management that bankrupted him and Christy
> Brinkley). Somehow they both get much more publicity.
> When you compare talent, BC can both play the piano
> and sing better. Elton put out tons of material, Billy
> Joel wrote some tremendously catchy songs. As a BC fan
> of 31 years, I'm also frustrated because he has not
> achieved the same type of super-star status,
> especially here in the US. When you look at BC's solo
> career, he had great session players and control over
> what he put out most of the time. Not all of his album
> cuts were comercially viable and more material would
> have helped. You have to think that he had the final
> approval in just about everything. Well, he still has
> the voice, plays better than ever and has time left on
> his clock so maybe he can do it.
I often wonder if Burton's "comfort zone" just got too comfortable and his doubts got the better of him. Many times he seemed to be ready to launch, then he'd put out something not as commercially successful then he'd disappear for a while such as he did after Sweet Sweet, then after Plus Signs. When he tries to "reinvent himself" in the current mileau and it doesn't happen he retreats to remaking his old hits. For me, Burton Cummings should never try to reinvent himself, his sound is too classic and too good to play around with (I'd Love to Talk -- YUK!). Fad sounds, lights and techno garbage are what you need to use when you CAN'T sing. Burton just sing, sing more, sing new songs (of your style), but don't ever doubt. We'll probably all lament that we don't see your name whenever we see the likes of Elton and Billy, but no one who's ever heard you has any doubts that you're the best there ever was or will be.
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Re: GW Reunion -- VfD, 20:01:46 01/31/00 Mon [1] (spider-tj024.proxy.aol.com/152.163.213.184)
"Reinvent", huh, reminds of how JE overgeneralized the entire PLUS SIGNS experience. Seems like it was considered a "sleeper hit", and did achieve Canadian platinum where SWEET SWEET & HEART did not. Reinvention, to my mind, means starting over from scratch. I'll grant you that "I'd Love to Talk" (personally, I kind of like it) might be difficult to swallow due more to the harsh vocal delivery (Burton attempts an over-the-edge guy personae) than the funky feel (reminds me of Robt. Palmer's "Didn't Mean To Turn You On"). But most of the work on the album is well within the wide range of the man's talents. I would agree that he doesn't need to resort to trendy sounds which usually end up sounding obsolete in 5yrs tops. But he shouldn't try to keep writing "Timeless Love the 2nd" or "Running With a Gun, part II", just as The Beatles went beyond "I Want To Hold Your Hand". I guess the distinction I would make is reinvention, no, but the artist has to keep growing, stretching his limits, drawing on all his wealth of musical resources (BC has plenty of these). The best thing about PLUS SIGNS was that he was singing about things that he'd pondered long & hard over, and found fresh ways of expressing himself musically. I suppose for you to say that he must stick to his own style, that still leaves him open to an extremely wide range of possibilities considering how "at home" he sounds doing so many different styles. But why stop there?
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Re: GW Reunion -- bcpcfan, 11:43:37 02/01/00 Tue [1] (NoHost/208.130.25.252)
> "Reinvent", huh, reminds of how JE overgeneralized the
> entire PLUS SIGNS experience. Seems like it was
> considered a "sleeper hit", and did achieve Canadian
> platinum where SWEET SWEET & HEART did not.
> Reinvention, to my mind, means starting over from
> scratch. I'll grant you that "I'd Love to Talk"
> (personally, I kind of like it) might be difficult to
> swallow due more to the harsh vocal delivery (Burton
> attempts an over-the-edge guy personae) than the funky
> feel (reminds me of Robt. Palmer's "Didn't Mean To
> Turn You On"). But most of the work on the album is
> well within the wide range of the man's talents. I
> would agree that he doesn't need to resort to trendy
> sounds which usually end up sounding obsolete in 5yrs
> tops. But he shouldn't try to keep writing "Timeless
> Love the 2nd" or "Running With a Gun, part II", just
> as The Beatles went beyond "I Want To Hold Your Hand".
> I guess the distinction I would make is reinvention,
> no, but the artist has to keep growing, stretching his
> limits, drawing on all his wealth of musical resources
> (BC has plenty of these). The best thing about PLUS
> SIGNS was that he was singing about things that he'd
> pondered long & hard over, and found fresh ways of
> expressing himself musically. I suppose for you to
> say that he must stick to his own style, that still
> leaves him open to an extremely wide range of
> possibilities considering how "at home" he sounds
> doing so many different styles. But why stop there?
As always, VfD, you bring out strong points and I regret that I do not preface mine with "IMHO".
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Re: GW Reunion -- Mark Mars, 21:26:49 02/02/00 Wed [1] (208-48-173-7.nas-2.scf.primenet.com/208.48.173.7)
I'm not sure that one can say that Burton is a better piano player than Elton John and Billy Joel. I'm a big fan of all three (at least pre-Caribou Elton)and have seen Billy Joel perform. Billy can really kick ass on the piano and Elton studied piano (you must listen to his recording of a radio broadcast with a three piece band I think the title is 11-10-70). Elton can really play. Burton is a really good piano player and may be the equal of Billy and Elton, but I'm not sure he's superior.
As for composing, that's a matter of taste. I like each artist for what they did. You could argue Elton is not as talented as he did not compose lyrics.
As for Burton's music, you must expect an artist to change styles in some manner as he must keep his art fresh and relevant to where he is at emotionally/intellectually at the time. Saying that, I really enjoy what he did with the Guess Who the most, ie. good straightforward rock and roll while trying different styles, and would like to see him return to his roots.
Let's just hope he can discover some new material within himself and provide it to us to enjoy.
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Re: GW Reunion -- VfD, 08:19:08 02/03/00 Thu [1] (as3-dial7.gdrp.mi.voyager.net/209.153.135.161)
That's a well thought-out and fair assessment, I believe. The thing about the arts, unlike track & field, "better" & "best" cannot be empirically measured.
As for Burton's roots, I would say that they are very deep & wide, considering that he was a music junkie at an extremely early age, & that his interests reach to way back before rock 'n' roll.
I like Billy Joel's approach. In an interview, he said that when he completes a composition, he sets out to create something completely different with the next one.
I do wish Burton would utilize a little more of that music theory he's got stashed in his brain, in exploring some more interesting progressions. Not necessarily Prokofiev (or Yes, for that matter), but maybe a little Brahms would be good. You CAN do that with heavy drums & guitars.
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Re: GW Reunion -- Dropping Pin, 09:33:04 02/03/00 Thu [1] (njvnews01.state.nj.us/199.20.66.1)
Mark, you made some good points, perhaps Burton is at least the equal to Billy Joel and Elton John in his playing ability. In songs such as Shiny Stockings or Grey Day, his combination of singing and playing is tough to match by anyone. Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
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Re: GW Reunion -- bcpcfan, 12:02:00 02/03/00 Thu [1] (NoHost/208.160.141.199)
> I'm not sure that one can say that Burton is a better
> piano player than Elton John and Billy Joel. I'm a
> big fan of all three (at least pre-Caribou Elton)and
> have seen Billy Joel perform. Billy can really kick
> ass on the piano and Elton studied piano (you must
> listen to his recording of a radio broadcast with a
> three piece band I think the title is 11-10-70). Elton
> can really play. Burton is a really good piano player
> and may be the equal of Billy and Elton, but I'm not
> sure he's superior.
> As for composing, that's a matter of taste. I like
> each artist for what they did. You could argue Elton
> is not as talented as he did not compose lyrics.
>
> As for Burton's music, you must expect an artist to
> change styles in some manner as he must keep his art
> fresh and relevant to where he is at
> emotionally/intellectually at the time. Saying that,
> I really enjoy what he did with the Guess Who the
> most, ie. good straightforward rock and roll while
> trying different styles, and would like to see him
> return to his roots.
>
> Let's just hope he can discover some new material
> within himself and provide it to us to enjoy.
There are many factors that make for greatness, and it depends of course on what you're looking for. IMHO, what I'm saying is that I feel Burton is as great on piano as Billy and Elton (not better). But as far as the total package, Burton's got the best voice, and let's face it there's the looks factor that at least half the population weren't (still aren't) ignoring. So as a full entertainment package, I have to believe that Burton's potential was far greater than he actually reached. And please, understand I'm not downing Burton, heaven knows I'm hooked on the guy's music.
With this question, I know I'll open up a Pandora's box of speculation, but here goes... With all that Burton obviously had going for him in his solo career, what happened to icon status for Burton worldwide and not just in Canada (talking general public here, not my well informed U.S. Burtonian Brothern)?
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Re: GW Reunion -- Mark Mars, 13:04:48 02/03/00 Thu [1] (gateway3.srp.gov/148.126.100.111)
Good discussion here. I'd like to say Burton and the Guess Who are my favorites, but I like Billy Joel early Elton and Van Morrison among others. Why didn't Burton achieve icon status outside Canada is a difficult answer. But, basically it has to do with not having a huge hit, either single or album. Billy and Elton had big breakout albums and folowed up with more big hits. The Stranger had a couple of major hits that got huge airplay, Goodbye Yellow Brick Road had multi hits. Both gave them superstar status.
Burton never got to that level, whether he deserved it or not. American Woman was very big but before the era of commercialism where it meant huge sales volumes and promotions. The Guess Who kept changing its styles which may have resulted in not being able to keep a core group.
Van Morrison is an incredible talent and has gotten critical acclaim but it never translated into the status of Elton or Billy. I guess it didn't reach far enough into commercialism.
Is it really important that Burton reach this icon status? Would Burton have created less artistic music if he had reached into that broad commercial acceptance as Elton did? There are quite a few wonderful talents that did not make it bit but arguably deserve it. I wish Burton had sold more as he would have had more support to produce and make available more music, otherwise I don't care about his status.
I will definitely agree about Burton's singing, that he is the best rock and roll singer around and better than Billy or Elton. As for looks, I'll let the females decide how important that is.
Wouldn't it be cool to hear Burton sing Moondance?
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Re: GW Reunion -- bcpcfan, 13:31:25 02/03/00 Thu [1] (NoHost/208.160.141.184)
You're right of course about the status -- not important other than the fact it would have led to more available listening material and a permanent slot at the record store that contains more than UC&A and Collections at the very most. And the looks -- well let's put it this way, it didn't hurt.
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Re: GW Reunion -- Dropping Pin, 13:45:19 02/03/00 Thu [1] (njvnews01.state.nj.us/199.20.66.1)
Burton would do a terrific job on Moondance as he would do on many others. I believe that a critical time was when My Own Way to Rock was released. If he had a few hits from that album, it may have carried the momentum from Stand Tall. I remember calling a local radio station here in NY, (WNEW-FM) to request a song and the DJ didn't even know MOWTR had been released. He also could have benefited from more commercially radio-friendly songs. Was Wait By the Water Lillian really necessary? For those of us who are huge Burton fans and believe in his enormous talent, you try and add together all that he has and I am mystified as I'm sure most of you are, especially the US fans. Being a superstar would have brought him more exposure and maybe more material output. Would that kind of pressure hurt his quality of songs? By the way, Burton would be great hosting a variety type of show. I'd also love to see him sub for someone like Paul Schaffer on the Letterman Show. He would rock the house!
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Re: GW Reunion -- Mark Mars, 22:06:58 02/03/00 Thu [1] (207-218-5-225.nas-1.scf.gblx.net/207.218.5.225)
By
> the way, Burton would be great hosting a variety type
> of show. I'd also love to see him sub for someone like
> Paul Schaffer on the Letterman Show. He would rock the
> house!
Interesting thought given his enjoyment at being on the radio. He probably would be great at it.
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Re: GW Reunion -- Fred, 10:10:19 02/04/00 Fri [1] (srv130.hrdc-drhc.gc.ca/198.103.153.3)
> By
> > the way, Burton would be great hosting a variety type
> > of show. I'd also love to see him sub for someone
> like
> > Paul Schaffer on the Letterman Show. He would rock
> the
> > house!
>
>
> Interesting thought given his enjoyment at being on
> the radio. He probably would be great at it.
*********************************************
Probably the most logical possibility would be guest-hosting the Mike Bullard show, but Bullard never seems to get sick or take holidays. Maybe someone in the Toronto area could go cough on him, or run over his foot with their car or something.
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