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Date Posted: 15:11:45 04/29/02 Mon
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I


The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)








MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.

GerryB.
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:30

RE: "Has it occurred to you that if Jesus said "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye
have eternal life; and they are they which testify of me," He said it long before the New
Testament was written?"

Yes, he did. When He spoke of the scriptures He was speaking of the books which became
the OLD TESTAMENT. He was speaking to the Jews and those were the scriptures which
were used in the first century temple and synagogs. When He went into the synagog on the
Sabbath and read from the scriptures He was reading from the OT scrolls. He often read from
the book of Isaiah and spoke of the fact that the Messianic prophecies of Isaiah were proven
in Him.

`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:27

His quotes/teachings were recorded for the NT.

Or, made up later. We can't be certain.

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:25

Did you watch any of that Rockies-Phils series? In the second game, with the score close and
the Phils with runners on 1st and 3rd with one out, one of your guys hit a medium deep fly ball
to right. The runner on third tagged and tried to score. Larry Walker threw a perfect strike to
nail him at the plate. In a interview after the game, Walker said: "It's a funny game. I missed the
cutoff man by 30 feet and still managed to get the guy out."

~Inquisitive~
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:21

Christ quoted scripture from the old testament..His quotes/teachings were recorded for the
NT.

Now there's a concept
Yes..a concept which can only be understood through Christ, in Christ. :)

Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:18

Webster allows for belief with or without certitude. Your belief about your life span is a belief
without certitude. You find fault with believers who express belief with certitude. It obviously
hits a hard rock of objection in you. I'm praying that it gets broken. It's a lot more likely that
this prayer will be answered than the one about the Rockies, who, by the way, did a nice job
on my Phils this weekend.

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:04

Belief without certainty...now there's a concept.

I believe that I will live well into my eighties, but I still have life insurance. It would be
irresponsible to feel certain about it.

`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:03

I just looked up the history of the Quaker Oats Company. It was founded in 1901 in a merger
that included The Germans Mills American Oatmeal Company, founded in 1856. No mention
of any Quakers involved. It was acquired by Pepsico in 2001.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:01

" I have noticed that many professors of tolerance actually go to the negative side by spending
quite a bit of time and energy crusading against intolerance and fingering particular individuals
for the unleashing of their wrath. In this, they put a form of intolerance of their own on display."
Yes, I am intolerant of willful ignorance of the nature of God in favor of being spoonfed by
some religion. I am intolerant of negativity which excludes God's love. I am intolerant of
exclusivity which is just a demonstration of Ego and lends the person a cloak of false "holiness"
under which to perform unholy acts on others. I am intolerant in lots of ways... Yep.

I don't know why whenever I get online, usually someone gets hungry... :) TTFN!

Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:54

"I only find fault with believers when they claim certainty."

Belief without certainty...now there's a concept.

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:53

That would be me... intolerant of intolerance.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:53

You know those folks at General Mills aren't even Quakers. The Christmas tree farm on which
our meeting house is built was named "Quaker Oaks", because it lies next to the Tulare County
Oak Preserve and Nature Conservancy and has some lovely Oaks on it too. The owners of
the farm were among the folks who worked so hard to preserve that stretch of land in its native
state. The Quaker Oats people took the owners of Quaker Oaks to court to make them
change their name. They lost. :)

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:49

Well, you have certainly given me a lot to think about this morning. First of all, I never said that
you do not stress tolerance, I said you stress universalism. Universalism is an appeal to look
for the common threads in religions. Theoretically, tolerance is a byproduct of that. Correct?
Others simply make an appeal for general and religious tolerance for its own sake.
Interestingly, though, I have noticed that many professors of tolerance actually go to the
negative side by spending quite a bit of time and energy crusading against intolerance and
fingering particular individuals for the unleashing of their wrath. In this, they put a form of
intolerance of their own on display.

`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:46

the liberty that comes from realizing the absolute control and authority of Jesus Christ.

Liberty under and absolute controlling authority... now there's a concept.

`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:44

John 5:39-40

Has it occurred to you that if Jesus said "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have
eternal life; and they are they which testify of me," He said it long before the New Testament
was written?

*Coinkydink
In Response To Sharon
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:42

Good Morning, inqui! "Ye search the scriptures, because in them ye thing ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I
receive not glory from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I have
come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not:" Jn 5:39-43. Thank you for that.

`Ctaj
In Response To Coindydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:38

I have Quaker Oats oatmeal almost every morning. Does that count for anything?

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:37

I think, based on the totality of your comments, you make more of an argument for
tolerance than you do universalism. Jeanie's comments are generally geared to the latter.
It's easy to get them mixed up, but I see them as actually being quite different in that,
basically, you argue for no religion and she for the other equality of all religions.
Depending on your perspective, this might not matter, but I believe it matters a lot.

Good assessment. Why does it matter a lot? Jeannie agrues that all religions worship the same
God, but doesn't find fault with non-believers. I only find fault with believers when they claim
certainty. Either way, we're both pretty tolerant and anti-divisive.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:33

Almost everyone who comes here has a point of view that they would like to pass along...I am
not here to look for converts to Quakerism. I am here to challenge people to seek God
without the need for clergy or their church group or catechism to tell them who God is. I would
be thrilled if every person here were inspired by the Holy Spirit speaking to them in their
souls...some are and some aren't. If the truth of God is in each soul, all we have to do is look
inward and we will find love.

Am I perfected yet? Nope, I react when I feel attacked. Is it wrong? Probably.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:24

You are right about a lot of things, but not everything. You said that I stress Universality but
not tolerance...actually it is tolerance to stress the universal love of God. Ctaj and I seldom
disagree wven though we don't believe quite the same things...the difference is that he never
criticizes me like you or Dori do on a personal basis... he challenges me somtimes to rethink
my statements, which is slightly different.

~Inquisitive~
In Response To Good morning!
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:15

An interesting quote from Oswald Chambers...

A spiritually-minded person will never come to you with the demand-"Believe this and that"; a
spiritually-minded person will demand that you align your life with the standards of Jesus. We
are not asked to believe the Bible, but to believe the One whom the Bible reveals (see John
5:39-40 ). We are called to present liberty for the conscience of others, not to bring them
liberty for their thoughts and opinions. And if we ourselves are free with the liberty of Christ,
others will be brought into that same liberty—the liberty that comes from realizing the absolute
control and authority of Jesus Christ.

Murray
In Response To Gerry
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:02

Gerry, no problem. I saw that you had posted to the board at least a half hour before I. It's a
reasonable assumption that you had gone somewhere in the interim.

Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:00

I think, based on the totality of your comments, you make more of an argument for tolerance
than you do universalism. Jeanie's comments are generally geared to the latter. It's easy to get
them mixed up, but I see them as actually being quite different in that, basically, you argue for
no religion and she for the other equality of all religions. Depending on your perspective, this
might not matter, but I believe it matters a lot.

GerryB.
Monday April 29, 2002 at 9:55

RE: "My view is that everybody is guessing, nobody knows squat about God with any
certainty whatsoever, and anyone who claims certainty is not only simplistic, but divisive."

Well, I know that you think that I'm simplistic but I'll let that pass. I hope that I'm not being
divisive. I believe that I know all that I need to know about God from what He has revealed to
us through the Bible which He has provided for us. If He wanted us to know more about Him
He would have told us more.

GerryB.
In Response To dori and Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 9:47

Good morning to both of you.

Murray, lest you think that I was being rude yesterday by not responding to your "Good
morning" I wasn't here all afternoon. I didn't get back in till almost midnight and I wasn't here
very long. Just long enough to read the day's posts both here and on PP. I didn't bother to
respond to anything. I was wiped out last night so I shut it down early and went to bed. So I'll
say GOOD MORNING for both days.

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 9:47

I found them to be, to put it most charitably, simplistic.

My view is that everybody is guessing, nobody knows squat about God with any certainty
whatsoever, and anyone who claims certainty is not only simplistic, but divisive. And such
divisiveness gets people killed.

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