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Date Posted: 15:56:50 04/26/02 Fri
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I
The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice. Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not. --Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a backup forum. :)


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MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To TMS
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:00
In other words, although your ideas are quite logical and sensible, it is from your perspective that they are. I have a 22 year old son who is very smart (150+ IQ) and is engaged and he has a view of marriage that is unfortunately very unrealistic. He has studied it and really thought about it quite a bit, but he is wrong. But, from his perspective, you can totally see why he thinks himself to be right. His conclusions are reached on irrefutable logic. If this, then that, etc. Only once he's married, however, will he know what marriage is like. Likewise, we can give a lot of serious thought to what it means to be all powerful, all the thought we can possibly give it. But, never having actually been all-powerful is a huge impediment to understanding it.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 14:56
God either does, or does not make mistakes.

God either does, or does not possess knowledge of future events.

God either does, or does not possess the power to implement Her will.

You can try to quibble on what the definitions mean, but all you are doing is saying He does not have the attributes granted him by the myth-writers, and you're trying to say it in such a way to appear as if you are not saying it.

Why is that?
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To TMS
Friday April 26, 2002 at 14:52
You write,"Because a "perfect" God makes no mistakes.
An "all-knowing" God knows the consequences of the actions It takes.
And an "all-powerful" God makes things happen the way He wants them to."

Of course, all of this hinges on what you and I might understand and agree all of these things mean. Yet, never having been all-powerful, how can we define it? We can only define it from the outside looking in. Or, take anything you are now but once were not in life? Did you really know beforehand what it was like to be married and exercise the responsibilities of marriage? Or, how can we know what it's like to live the life of another? I'm quite sure you'd deeply resent it if another person presumed to know what your life is really like.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
Friday April 26, 2002 at 14:43
3) Take away "perfect". God has the power to do what He wishes, and has the "omnisciece" to know what his power will do, but He still makes mistakes. Which means He lacks the power to enforce His Omniscience, which means He lacks Omnipotence.

No. You cannot pull one of the three legs off and have what Christianity recognizes as God, and if the Christian God exists, the Christian presumption of freewill is void.

The basic paradox of Christianity. Since paradoxes do not exist in nature, God does not exist. And wishful thinking cannot alter this.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
Friday April 26, 2002 at 14:42
1) Take away "omnipotent", and God can be a creative experimenter who does not have complete control of Her creation. But if "perfect" is retained in this scenario, God cannot have expectations of how the Creation turns out, which voids "omniscient".

2) Take away "omniscience", and God is a Creatrix with all power, but who does not know what his creation will do. Which calls into question the attribute "perfect", since not having knowledge of consequences by definition implies that some consequences will be not what one wishes.

[Verified ~Inquisitive~] ~Inquisitive~
In Response To TMS
Friday April 26, 2002 at 14:41
God is perfect in Love; always present, aware and understanding to those who have faith, and hope of things to come. :)

Nice chattin' hope your family is doing fine.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 14:33
Because a "perfect" God makes no mistakes.
An "all-knowing" God knows the consequences of the actions It takes.
And an "all-powerful" God makes things happen the way He wants them to.

And in order for Adolph Hitler (or name your favorite historical figure) to be born, God had to know exactly which egg would be present, and which one of millions of sperm would reach that egg. And She would have had to make sure that Hitler's grandfather slept with (committed fornication with) the maid on the correct night at the correct time, etc. One little mistake, and Little Adolph becomes the Catholic Priest he once wanted to be (before y'all cry, read Toland's biography, okay?)

If God has all those attributes, then there can be no freedom for the Creation.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Inquisitive
Friday April 26, 2002 at 14:27
So, God is not "Perfect"? He's not "Omniscient"? And She's not "Omnipotent"? That's a novel idea. Sounds like Bill Clinton could be God.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To TMS
Friday April 26, 2002 at 14:26
Why does it have to follow that if God has the three attributes, then man is a pre-programmed machine?
[Verified ~Inquisitive~] ~Inquisitive~
In Response To TMS
Friday April 26, 2002 at 14:24
I'll remove all 3.

Faith, Love, and Hope is what God is all about. Those 3 issues are the legs of that so called tripod. :)
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Inquisitive
Friday April 26, 2002 at 14:16
Nope. You can't be, unless you take out a leg of the tripod, as I said. Which one will you pull on?
[Verified ~Inquisitive~] ~Inquisitive~
In Response To TMS
Friday April 26, 2002 at 14:12
I'm not difficult, either..and am correct. :)
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Inquisitive
Friday April 26, 2002 at 14:09
Well, if She exists, then you don't have any choice in the matter.

I'm not difficult, just correct.
[Verified ~Inquisitive~] ~Inquisitive~
In Response To TMS
Friday April 26, 2002 at 14:05
He exists, Basil, and has shown me His love and mercy, patience, and forgiveness..all of which I'm unworthy of, and turned my life around.

I have searched everywhere looking for answers I couldn't find, until I came back to the very place my questions began..back to God, and His word.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Inquisitive
Friday April 26, 2002 at 13:56
So what are you saying? We have no choice in anything in this life? You choose not to believe there's a heavenly God, is that not a choice you made?

Choice exists, the God you pretend exists doesn't. You choose to pretend. Therefore your God cannot exist.

Which of the three attributes would you like to remove to make your God possible?
[Verified ~Inquisitive~] ~Inquisitive~
In Response To Gerry/TMS/Ctaj
Friday April 26, 2002 at 13:41
Hi, Gerry! Afternoon to you too. :)

TMS:Choice is only possible if freewill actually exists.

So what are you saying? We have no choice in anything in this life? You choose not to believe there's a heavenly God, is that not a choice you made?

Ctaj: as you will note, I said (try too) yes, there are many times I have failed as a Christian..actually, unworthy of being called a Christian. I know, now, the closer my relationship with God is, the less I fall of the wagon..persay.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 13:34
I would say, however, that considering that both "Atlas Shrugged" and "Genesis" are creative works of the human imagination, that it doesn't really matter.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 13:32
Ask Ctaj. Personally, I've never been able to read the entire 120 page John Galt Speech, and have no idea what you are talking about.
[Verified GerryB.] GerryB.
In Response To Inquistive
Friday April 26, 2002 at 13:32
Good morning. It has been a while since you posted here. Welcome back.
[Verified `Ctaj] `Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 13:32
So, in John Galt's speech, when he calls man a robot in the Garden of Eden, how is it explained that the robot ends up a man?

We're talking about fiction, Murray. Poetic license is allowed.
[Verified `Ctaj] `Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Friday April 26, 2002 at 13:30
Everyone has the choice, (freewill) to believe in God or not. If one chooses to believe, then freewill is no longer important. We choose to do that which is righteous (try daily) in His eyes.

Don't be absurd. Believers fall of the Wagon of Righteousness every day. Don't they?
[Verified GerryB.] GerryB.
Friday April 26, 2002 at 13:30
RE: "If God is perfect (error-free), if God is omniscient (all-knowing), and if God is omnipotent (all-powerfull), then Man is a pre-programmed machine following pre-established paths and He has no choice whatsoever in what He does."

That is not true. A perfect, omniscient and omnipotent God created man to be perfect. He gave that creation the free will to decide if he was going to love and follow God's plan. Man strayed from the path of righteousness. This brought sin into that perfect world. This does not diminish the work of God in creating man as a perfect, sinless creature. It was by his own choice that man fell from grace.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To TMS
Friday April 26, 2002 at 13:29
So, in John Galt's speech, when he calls man a robot in the Garden of Eden, how is it explained that the robot ends up a man?

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