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Date Posted: 16:00:30 04/26/02 Fri
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I
The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice. Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not. --Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a backup forum. :)

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MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:52
Also, that the Boy Scouts are looking better and better all the time for their position and policies and for their aggressive and relentless implementation thereof.

I agree. It's ridiculous that the Scouts were attacked for their reasonable position.
[Verified Sim 2] Sim 2
In Response To RonB
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:51
"Time to Clean House in the Catholic Church."

Does that also include the Homosexual/abortion supporting Representatives in Government, like Ted Kennedy, Barney Franks?

Those who support them and their "other doctrine" are as guilty as them.

2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

If they support these men and their "equal rights" for Homo's, what's wrong with a "predator" for a "Priest"???

Without the "Catholic" support, neither could be elected.
[Verified `Ctaj] `Ctaj
In Response To dori
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:51
I find it revealing that you addressed the one part of my post that was trivial, yet ignored the part which explained why your original post to me was misleading. Aren't you the one who accuses me of only wanting to discuss superficial things while you, heavyweight mental giant that you are, prefer the highbrow intellectual discussion? Then, after ignoring my explanation, you tell Stephen that I must have been imagining the baby's head stuck in a paint can when I admonished you about exposing it to paint fumes? LOL!

Now, do you see why I prefer not to respond to your posts? ROFLMPRAVBO!

In the immortal words of the all-powerful, all-knowing, omnicient Moderator, "Take it to email."
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To For those who care...
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:49
My puter at home has a virus and I can't get online til Daddy comes back from Hawaii to fix it. Sooo, if you don't see me around for awhile, that's where I am... home reading!

God bless!
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To TMS
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:49
"What is relevant is that God cannot possess the three attributes described and still create a universe with Man's freewill."

I take this as your assertion based on your understanding. And, I still say that God is not limited by our understanding of Him nor circumscribed by our definition of his attributes. In other words, I do not accept your conclusions no matter how many times you put them up here or how many different ways you try to explain them. It may be a news flash to you, but you do have limitations. On this subject, they are showing.
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Ten Megs
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:48
God either does, or does not possess the power to implement Her will.

And his will was that men freely choose him, not be his robots.
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To GerryB
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:46
I would guess then that you don't use the word "saints" in the same way in which Paul used it is his epistles...

St. Paul in Hebrews 12 writes:

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

What does St. Paul mean here with the phrase "the spirits of just men made perfect?"
[Verified `Ctaj] `Ctaj
In Response To RonB
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:42
When Adam & Even were in a state of grace, they walked with God and were his friends, not his robots.

A friend wouldn't do to Adam and Eve what God allegedly did.

Come on. You believe in talking snakes, and that there was no death before Eve chowed down on the forbidden fruit. And you accuse me of a lapse in logic?
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Ten Megs
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:41
If God is perfect (error-free), if God is omniscient (all-knowing), and if God is omnipotent (all-powerfull), then Man is a pre-programmed machine following pre-established paths and He has no choice whatsoever in what He does.

Of course this is an error in logic. Because God knows what we will do, doesn't mean we are compelled to do one thing or another. God is perfect (error free) but he created man with free-will -- the right to choose his destiny. Man is not error free.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:40
To believe in God is to deny of Freewill.

I've been explaining that this whole page. Because the definition of God is incompatible with the definition of "freewill".
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To Coinky
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:38
I find it revealing that you addressed the one part of my post that was trivial, yet ignored the part which explained why your original post to me was misleading. Aren't you the one who accuses me of only wanting to discuss superficial things while you, heavyweight mental giant that you are, prefer the highbrow intellectual discussion? Then, after ignoring my explanation, you tell Stephen that I must have been imagining the baby's head stuck in a paint can when I admonished you about exposing it to paint fumes? LOL!

Now, do you see why I prefer not to respond to your posts? ROFLMPRAVBO!
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:37
Which attributes are left out that either enhance or detract from the necessary attributes of omniscience, omnipotence, and perfection? In what ways do these mysterious attributes enhance or detract? How can one enhance or detract from perfection, omniscience, and omnipotence without necessarily eliminating the concept entirely?

If one is perfect, one cannot be made more perfect.

How can one be more powerful than all-powerful? One cannot be all powerful if one becomes less powerful.

And in one knows all there is to know, how can he know more?

There may or may not be other attributes for your God. That is irrelevant. What is relevant is that God cannot possess the three attributes described and still create a universe with Man's freewill.
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Ten Megs
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:37
Because God made him that way. To believe in God is to deny of Freewill.

How so?
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Ctaj
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:35
"It is not his vices that their myth of man's fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was - that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love - he was not man.

Ayn Rand is free to express whatever opinion he/she wishes. It doesn't make it true. When Adam & Even were in a state of grace, they walked with God and were his friends, not his robots. If, as Ayn Rand says, men were robots before the fall, how did they choose to sin and "fall." A serious lapse in logic.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To RonB
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:34
Hi, Ron. I intentionally did not mention your church by name, because this type of thing is not necessarily confined to it. Besides, my main point is the rank hypocrisy and almost complete lack of a moral compass of the news media. Also, that the Boy Scouts are looking better and better all the time for their position and policies and for their aggressive and relentless implementation thereof. Having a son who is an Eagle Scout, I know about this from going through the program with him. Where can I read Buchanan's article, BTW.
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Ctaj
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:29
The flaw in this false dichotomy lies in the assumption that one loses nothing when one sacrifices the integrity of his mind.

Which is why Belloc countered Blaise Pascal's wager "logic" with the words of St. Paul, who said (words to the effect anyhow), "If our Faith is false we are the most misreble of men."
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:27
What's the difference between the Boy Scouts and the current church sexual abuse scandal? The Boy Scouts have had aggressive policies in force to protect children in their charge from sexual predators. The church has not.

Which is a point Pat Buchanan, a traditional Catholic, made in his article, "Time to Clean House in the Catholic Church."
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Ten Megs
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:25
If you don't understand what I said, it's okay for you to say so. Claiming that my meaning is the opposite of what I say and then nodding in agreement is silly. And Pascal's first name was "Blaise", not Paul.

I understand what you said. I don't think you read my earlier messages very carefully. I excerpted a passage from Belloc's book, quoting Blaise Pascal and his "wager" theory, than opposing Blaise Pascal's theory with the words of St. Paul. You wrote, "...then that time he's wasted "believing" is time that could have been better spent on something real. " Which was exactly St. Paul's point and why I said that you agreed with him. You don't agree with Blaise Pascal on this point, do you?
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To TMS
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:18
"What part of "all" do you not understand? I understand it perfectly. I also understand that you are trying to divert the discussion to etymology because you cannot refute the basic concepts presented. Why should I help?

So, a person who enters into a discussion with you has to accept your etymology and your parameters? Nice world if you can get it.
[Verified Sim 2] Sim 2
In Response To Ya'll
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:12
Did it ever occur to anyone God knew "Everything" that was going to happen and planned accordingly.

Why was Abraham chosen???

Because looking down through time God could see that Abraham's decendents in every generation would serve him, therefore his "Covenant" with Abraham wasn't due to "predestination", but "Foreknowledge".

The "covenant" could easily have been made with someone else, "IF" their descendants had met God's requirements.

Ge 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment;
[Verified `Ctaj] `Ctaj
In Response To Ten Megaton Solution
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:10
Marriage is not logical. It is instinctual.

It's not logical if you understand the Internal Revenue Code.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To TMS
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:07
"You can try to quibble on what the definitions mean, but all you are doing is saying He does not have the attributes granted him by the myth-writers...

Not really, I am just saying He has an attribute or two you leave out. He is beyond the limits of our ability to understand Him and He is not circumscribed by the limits of our ability to define Him.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Ctaj
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:06
Marriage is not logical. It is instinctual.
[Verified `Ctaj] `Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:05
His conclusions are reached on irrefutable logic.

What logical but unrealistic conclustions about marriage has your son drawn?
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:05
. But, never having actually been all-powerful is a huge impediment to understanding it.

Only if you have an imagination limited by knowledge that understanding the term will cause conflict with preconceived notions.

What part of "all" do you not understand? I understand it perfectly. I also understand that you are trying to divert the discussion to etymology because you cannot refute the basic concepts presented. Why should I help?
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