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Sight & Sound
This forum is school related so please no cursing.This forum is here to let us talk to those we can't reach normally along with other event information.
R1 -- stored, 15:16:29 04/29/02 Mon

Religion I


The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)








MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Doris
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:48

That happens to some minds. They're confronted by something both bigger than their
comprehension and better than their desires, and they pretend it's not worth considering.

I've seen it often. It's called "denial". Some people grow out of it, many don't. Perhaps
someday you'll be able to encompass all that I say. Maybe not. Sounds like you're choosing to
be small. That's a tough road, Mrs. Thumb.

Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:45

Not that anyone here thinks Pat Robertson is a worthy consumer of oxygen, but Mr. Pat Goes
to the Track

dori
In Response To Doofus Ten Meg
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:45

That is precisely why I said his opinion is worth the paper it is printed on, as is yours BTW.
These words we're all reading are not printed on paper, therefore they are printed on nothing.
Get it? I'll say it another way. I have no interest in his or your opinion--they are no longer of
interest or worth to me.

GerryB.
In Response To Inquisitive
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:23

People do not become "children of God" until they are born again. Before that they are just
creatures that He created.

Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:21

Gee, Jeff, I didn't know my opinion mattered that much to you. In any case, assuming it does,
here is my answer:

MURRAY'S ANSWER TO JEFF

GerryB.
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:20

"58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
John 8:58(KJV).

Here He is referring to the passage in Exodus where God told Moses, "14And God said unto
Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM
hath sent me unto you. 15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the
children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac,
and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial
unto all generations."
Exodus 3:14-15(KJV).

God was telling Moses that He is the eternal, self existent God.

~Inquisitive~
In Response To ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:07

That some men think that they are gods because they are the children of God..considering
themselves to be above everyone else. But they shall die like men, and fall like one of the
princes.

Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:02

And I'm so glad that the Catholic Church has established "zero tolerance". Los Angeles
Archdiocese Cardinal Mahoney just released one more priest's name to the cops...for crimes
committed 35 years ago. It's amazing. According to Mahoney, there hasn't been a single
instance of Priestly diddling in LA since 1970.

Anyone believe this?

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Doris
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:00

Second, what you believe doesn't matter a hill of beans to me and I assess the worth of
your words at the same value as the paper they're printed on.

It's good to know someone is printing out hard copies of this forum. How do you index it all?
At least I'm assuming you print it out, because why else would you say it's printed?

And it does seem to me that some here freight intellectual discussion with emotional
undercurrents that have no bearing on the topic. Perhaps we should dig into the Bible and find
the best recipes?

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:00

Only way I can see Jeff's remarks being worth the paper they're printed on - or not. *-)

Don't just sit there, Murray. Jump right in and destroy my worthless posts by showing us all
where Jesus definitively claimed to be God in the flesh.

`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Monday April 29, 2002 at 12:58

In Psalms 82:6, the same is said by God, and Jesus said "I" said.

Psalms 82:6 - "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most high."

So, everybody's both gods and children of gods, not just Jesus.

You said it, too. Does that make you God?

Murray
In Response To dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 12:57

Are you printing the forum out on paper? Only way I can see Jeff's remarks being worth the
paper they're printed on - or not. *-)

`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 12:53

(and if you saw a point in her meanderings, you're even smarter than you claim to be).

That's impossible.

dori
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 12:50

Re: Re your Oh please! LOL! response to Coinkydink's 5:43 post, I believe that if more
people in the world shared her views, and fewer people had yours, the world would be a
more civilized place. First, my "oh please" was in response to her inane series of posts to me
and not to a specific point (and if you saw a point in her meanderings, you're even smarter than
you claim to be). Second, what you believe doesn't matter a hill of beans to me and I assess
the worth of your words at the same value as the paper they're printed on. You have a nice
day, ya hear?

~Inquisitive~
In Response To ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 12:49

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
In Psalms 82:6, the same is said by God, and Jesus said "I" said.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou has said: never the less I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the
Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 12:31

It was probably blasphemy to claim the Pharisees were liars, too. Mr. J could have been
caught in a Catch 22.

`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Monday April 29, 2002 at 12:21

A discerning reader can see that what Jesus was saying was, "If you want to believe that I am
God in the flesh, I'm going to let you believe it, but I'm not going to lie about it and claim it
myself."

`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Monday April 29, 2002 at 12:18

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Nope. Nowhere does Jesus say, "I am God in the human flesh."

On His last alleged last day, when Pontius Pilate asked, "Are you the King of the Jews?" Jesus
reportedly replied, "You say so." That's not an admission of the accusation, much less a claim
that He was God in the flesh.

Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 29, 2002 at 12:09

We are not asked to believe the Bible, but to believe the One whom the Bible reveals (see
John 5:39-40 ).

Not possible. If the Bible is incorrect (it is, not one of you here is capable of believing every
single word of that book is literal truth. I've proved that. If you disagree with me, I'll start
discussing God's manipulation of Pharoah again.) And if the reference material is false, it
cannot be relied absolutely for anything.

How many of you people think George Washington couldn't tell lies?

~Inquisitive~
Monday April 29, 2002 at 12:09

John 10:30-34
I and [my] Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of
those works do ye stone me?
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and
because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in
your law, I said, Ye are gods?

`Ctaj
In Response To GerryB
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:52

The thing which got Him in trouble with the Jewish religious leaders was when He claimed
to be God in human flesh. This was, to them, blasphemy and was punishable by death.

But He didn't say that.

GerryB.
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:45

If you are speaking of the sermon on the mount as quoted in Matthew 5-7 He didn't say that
any of them were not to be changed in their original intent. He, in most cases added to them.
"17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy,
but to fulfil."
Matthew 5:17(KJV)

The thing which got Him in trouble with the Jewish religious leaders was when He claimed to
be God in human flesh. This was, to them, blasphemy and was punishable by death.

Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:44

No, didn't watch but about 5 mins of the three games. Funny story, though. Those kinds of
things are what give baseball a charm the other games can't match. To me, John Kruk had one
of the best baseball attitudes I've ever seen. When some lady challenged him about his beer gut
and how could he hope to be taken seriously as a professional athlete with a gut like that --
yada yada -- he said, "Lady, you're mistaken. I'm not an athlete -- I'm a ballplayer." Gotta love
it.

GerryB.
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:37

"36If the Son (Jesus is here speaking of Himself as the only begotten Son of God-GB)
therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
John 8:36(KJV).

The ultimate in freedom is what we have in our service to our precious redeemer, Jesus Christ.

`Ctaj
In Response To GerryB
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:32

As I recall, Jesus also said that some parts of the Mosaic Law (OT) were nonsense and he
rebelled against them. That's what got him cross-wise with the jewish leadership.


[ Edit | View ]

R1 -- stored, 15:11:45 04/29/02 Mon

Religion I


The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)








MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.

GerryB.
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:30

RE: "Has it occurred to you that if Jesus said "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye
have eternal life; and they are they which testify of me," He said it long before the New
Testament was written?"

Yes, he did. When He spoke of the scriptures He was speaking of the books which became
the OLD TESTAMENT. He was speaking to the Jews and those were the scriptures which
were used in the first century temple and synagogs. When He went into the synagog on the
Sabbath and read from the scriptures He was reading from the OT scrolls. He often read from
the book of Isaiah and spoke of the fact that the Messianic prophecies of Isaiah were proven
in Him.

`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:27

His quotes/teachings were recorded for the NT.

Or, made up later. We can't be certain.

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:25

Did you watch any of that Rockies-Phils series? In the second game, with the score close and
the Phils with runners on 1st and 3rd with one out, one of your guys hit a medium deep fly ball
to right. The runner on third tagged and tried to score. Larry Walker threw a perfect strike to
nail him at the plate. In a interview after the game, Walker said: "It's a funny game. I missed the
cutoff man by 30 feet and still managed to get the guy out."

~Inquisitive~
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:21

Christ quoted scripture from the old testament..His quotes/teachings were recorded for the
NT.

Now there's a concept
Yes..a concept which can only be understood through Christ, in Christ. :)

Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:18

Webster allows for belief with or without certitude. Your belief about your life span is a belief
without certitude. You find fault with believers who express belief with certitude. It obviously
hits a hard rock of objection in you. I'm praying that it gets broken. It's a lot more likely that
this prayer will be answered than the one about the Rockies, who, by the way, did a nice job
on my Phils this weekend.

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:04

Belief without certainty...now there's a concept.

I believe that I will live well into my eighties, but I still have life insurance. It would be
irresponsible to feel certain about it.

`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:03

I just looked up the history of the Quaker Oats Company. It was founded in 1901 in a merger
that included The Germans Mills American Oatmeal Company, founded in 1856. No mention
of any Quakers involved. It was acquired by Pepsico in 2001.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 11:01

" I have noticed that many professors of tolerance actually go to the negative side by spending
quite a bit of time and energy crusading against intolerance and fingering particular individuals
for the unleashing of their wrath. In this, they put a form of intolerance of their own on display."
Yes, I am intolerant of willful ignorance of the nature of God in favor of being spoonfed by
some religion. I am intolerant of negativity which excludes God's love. I am intolerant of
exclusivity which is just a demonstration of Ego and lends the person a cloak of false "holiness"
under which to perform unholy acts on others. I am intolerant in lots of ways... Yep.

I don't know why whenever I get online, usually someone gets hungry... :) TTFN!

Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:54

"I only find fault with believers when they claim certainty."

Belief without certainty...now there's a concept.

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:53

That would be me... intolerant of intolerance.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:53

You know those folks at General Mills aren't even Quakers. The Christmas tree farm on which
our meeting house is built was named "Quaker Oaks", because it lies next to the Tulare County
Oak Preserve and Nature Conservancy and has some lovely Oaks on it too. The owners of
the farm were among the folks who worked so hard to preserve that stretch of land in its native
state. The Quaker Oats people took the owners of Quaker Oaks to court to make them
change their name. They lost. :)

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:49

Well, you have certainly given me a lot to think about this morning. First of all, I never said that
you do not stress tolerance, I said you stress universalism. Universalism is an appeal to look
for the common threads in religions. Theoretically, tolerance is a byproduct of that. Correct?
Others simply make an appeal for general and religious tolerance for its own sake.
Interestingly, though, I have noticed that many professors of tolerance actually go to the
negative side by spending quite a bit of time and energy crusading against intolerance and
fingering particular individuals for the unleashing of their wrath. In this, they put a form of
intolerance of their own on display.

`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:46

the liberty that comes from realizing the absolute control and authority of Jesus Christ.

Liberty under and absolute controlling authority... now there's a concept.

`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:44

John 5:39-40

Has it occurred to you that if Jesus said "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have
eternal life; and they are they which testify of me," He said it long before the New Testament
was written?

*Coinkydink
In Response To Sharon
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:42

Good Morning, inqui! "Ye search the scriptures, because in them ye thing ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I
receive not glory from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I have
come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not:" Jn 5:39-43. Thank you for that.

`Ctaj
In Response To Coindydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:38

I have Quaker Oats oatmeal almost every morning. Does that count for anything?

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:37

I think, based on the totality of your comments, you make more of an argument for
tolerance than you do universalism. Jeanie's comments are generally geared to the latter.
It's easy to get them mixed up, but I see them as actually being quite different in that,
basically, you argue for no religion and she for the other equality of all religions.
Depending on your perspective, this might not matter, but I believe it matters a lot.

Good assessment. Why does it matter a lot? Jeannie agrues that all religions worship the same
God, but doesn't find fault with non-believers. I only find fault with believers when they claim
certainty. Either way, we're both pretty tolerant and anti-divisive.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:33

Almost everyone who comes here has a point of view that they would like to pass along...I am
not here to look for converts to Quakerism. I am here to challenge people to seek God
without the need for clergy or their church group or catechism to tell them who God is. I would
be thrilled if every person here were inspired by the Holy Spirit speaking to them in their
souls...some are and some aren't. If the truth of God is in each soul, all we have to do is look
inward and we will find love.

Am I perfected yet? Nope, I react when I feel attacked. Is it wrong? Probably.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:24

You are right about a lot of things, but not everything. You said that I stress Universality but
not tolerance...actually it is tolerance to stress the universal love of God. Ctaj and I seldom
disagree wven though we don't believe quite the same things...the difference is that he never
criticizes me like you or Dori do on a personal basis... he challenges me somtimes to rethink
my statements, which is slightly different.

~Inquisitive~
In Response To Good morning!
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:15

An interesting quote from Oswald Chambers...

A spiritually-minded person will never come to you with the demand-"Believe this and that"; a
spiritually-minded person will demand that you align your life with the standards of Jesus. We
are not asked to believe the Bible, but to believe the One whom the Bible reveals (see John
5:39-40 ). We are called to present liberty for the conscience of others, not to bring them
liberty for their thoughts and opinions. And if we ourselves are free with the liberty of Christ,
others will be brought into that same liberty—the liberty that comes from realizing the absolute
control and authority of Jesus Christ.

Murray
In Response To Gerry
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:02

Gerry, no problem. I saw that you had posted to the board at least a half hour before I. It's a
reasonable assumption that you had gone somewhere in the interim.

Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 10:00

I think, based on the totality of your comments, you make more of an argument for tolerance
than you do universalism. Jeanie's comments are generally geared to the latter. It's easy to get
them mixed up, but I see them as actually being quite different in that, basically, you argue for
no religion and she for the other equality of all religions. Depending on your perspective, this
might not matter, but I believe it matters a lot.

GerryB.
Monday April 29, 2002 at 9:55

RE: "My view is that everybody is guessing, nobody knows squat about God with any
certainty whatsoever, and anyone who claims certainty is not only simplistic, but divisive."

Well, I know that you think that I'm simplistic but I'll let that pass. I hope that I'm not being
divisive. I believe that I know all that I need to know about God from what He has revealed to
us through the Bible which He has provided for us. If He wanted us to know more about Him
He would have told us more.

GerryB.
In Response To dori and Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 9:47

Good morning to both of you.

Murray, lest you think that I was being rude yesterday by not responding to your "Good
morning" I wasn't here all afternoon. I didn't get back in till almost midnight and I wasn't here
very long. Just long enough to read the day's posts both here and on PP. I didn't bother to
respond to anything. I was wiped out last night so I shut it down early and went to bed. So I'll
say GOOD MORNING for both days.

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 9:47

I found them to be, to put it most charitably, simplistic.

My view is that everybody is guessing, nobody knows squat about God with any certainty
whatsoever, and anyone who claims certainty is not only simplistic, but divisive. And such
divisiveness gets people killed.


[ Edit | View ]

R1 -- stored, 15:07:57 04/29/02 Mon

Religion I


The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)








MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.

Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 9:39

" I believe that if more people in the world shared her views, and fewer people had yours,
the world would be a more civilized place."

Jeff, I absolutely agree that this sounds good and I was once a great subscriber to such
notions. Yet, after putting ideas like this under great scrutiny, I found them to be, to put it most
charitably, simplistic. Also, if you do a little digging, you will find that people whose lives
actually reflect such a belief do not exist. But, since you make the assertion, I could also simply
do as you often do and say, if you sincerely believe this, prove that it is actually true rather than
just something that sounds good.

`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 9:03

Re your Oh please! LOL! response to Coinkydink's 5:43 post, I believe that if more people in
the world shared her views, and fewer people had yours, the world would be a more civilized
place.

Murray
In Response To dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 8:18

Oops, last one was to you. Could have just as easily been to her, though. You are both
equally horrible to each other.

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 8:15

"I was going to try to explain to her again about how words mean things, but I decided it
really isn't worth the effort."

You both are horrible to each other. The slings and arrows fly in both directions.

dori
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 8:10

Now don't get carried away. I didn't say ALL of your observations were astute... grin

But, yes, you have made some astute observations about me as well. I'll let you figure out
which ones. Laterz!

Murray
In Response To dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 8:01

I'll know you will truly think my observations astute when you say that of the observations I
make about you. *-)

And, yes, Good Morning also to you. "...the LORD's mercies we are not consumed, Because
His compassions fail not. They are new every morning;" (from Lamentations, Chapter 3)

dori
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 7:49

Good morning. Very astute observation, if you don't mind my saying so. I was going to try to
explain to her again about how words mean things, but I decided it really isn't worth the effort.
I have an early day today, so I have to leave. I hope you have a great Monday. God bless.

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 7:39

"Everyone is going toward God. All people are seeking the same Truth. They will all
realize him if they have sincerity and longing of heart."


So, when is it exactly that you stopped seeking God, seeing as how you haven't posted
anything that is, in its essence, new here for at least three years? You post very high and lofty
things, but they ring hollow.

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 7:25

You may not be a proselytizer in the strictest sense of the word, but you have a definite point
of view and you bring it with you when you come here and, in your own way, share it quite
forcefully. You have an interesting way of doing it, to give one example, of asking questions
such as, "Who are the real Christians?" of others of which you've already made your mind up
as to what the answer is. So, yes, you may not come here to win others over to your faith per
se, but, intentionally or not, you do come here as a witness, to testify to what you believe. A
psychologist friend of mine is fond of asking, "So what is it about yourself that you see in the
other person that you don't like?" Look hard enough and you will see the proselytizer within.

dori
In Response To Coinky
Monday April 29, 2002 at 7:15

Oh please! LOL!

*Coinkydink
In Response To One God
Monday April 29, 2002 at 5:43

Last Sunday while at an Earth Day celebration, I bought a laser etched stone for my friend,
Rachid. It is etched in Arabic, "Allah is the one God." The Hindu philosopher, Ramakrishna
wrote: "I see people who talk about religion constantly quarreling with one another...They
haven't the wisdom to know that He who is called Krishna is also Siva and the Primal shakti,
and that it is He, again, who is called Jesus and Allah. Truth is one; only it is called by different
names. People injure and kill one another, and shed blood, in the name of religion. But this is
not good. Everyone is going toward God. All people are seeking the same Truth. They will all
realize him if they have sincerity and longing of heart."

*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 5:02

"My advice to you? Don't use the big words if you want to convey your meaning better." Do
you always feel such an overwhelming need to be critical of other's? Why is that? You might
try to curb that impulse in future... thanks. ;)

*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 4:57

Inducing someone or convincing someone to come over to your faith is not the same as
coercion... Most of the posters here probably hope to win others to their faith, particularly
those whose religion tells them to witness to others and evangelize. It's not a great fault in that
person, but it is something that I personally do not really like pointed at me. It's not a bad thing
about Prag, but something that I didn't like. What is it with you and Prag anyway? Is he
another of your "sages"? Why do you feel a need to defend him even when no one is attacking
him?

~Dr. Lucy~
In Response To Dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 0:10

Sorry it took me so long to get back, I've been lurking/posting in between chores that have
piled up. I told him how much she has changed...he would never take credit for any of that
though..but I'm sure one day God will let him know how much he was listened to. :) G'nite
Dori..see ya tomorrow.

dori
In Response To Kim
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 23:58

Nice to see you here, hon. I have to go to bed now, but I hope to catch you again soon. xo

dori
In Response To Kim
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 23:44

Wow! That really is a good illustration of how God is always with us, even when we don't
even ask him to be, but sometimes just because others care enough to go to him for us. Your
dad is something else, Kim, to be still praying for this girl after all this time. He must really care
about her. Does he know how his prayers have helped her?

~Dr. Lucy~
In Response To Dori
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 23:31

Your post tickled me because she really is stable now..and it never occurred to me to give
God credit for it before. But when dad told me he was still praying for her after all this time, it
really really made sense.

~Dr. Lucy~
In Response To Dori
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 23:30

You would be AMAZED! My dad was asking about her last week, which is why I
remembered it tonight. He reminded me that he led her to Christ over the phone after a lengthy
phone conversation. Her name is Juli, and she was an EXTREMELY wild child. Now, she's a
single mom working 3 jobs, and she has for a few yrs now...to put her kids in college. (2 girls
who graduated on the honor roll--straight A's) She pays for tuition, dorm and books... I've
kept in touch with her family...she has become more responsible than most people who started
out under similar circumstances.

dori
In Response To Kim
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 23:22

Just think--that prayer of your dad's may be the thread that is keeping that friend's situation
stable. I think that's great!!!

~Dr. Lucy~
In Response To Dori
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 22:44

I sure will. Here's something to think about. My dad has a list of people that he prays for, and
it's over 20 yrs old..he just keeps adding names as needed. One of my friends...who I've not
spoken to in 15 yrs, he's still praying for.

dori
In Response To Coinky
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 21:23

I miss minder, too. If he hadn't left Stephen's room things wouldn't have turned sour there, I'm
sure. He was a great presence. I hope he returns one day to share more of his thoughts. 8-)

dori
In Response To Coinky
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 21:19

Then why did you bring that up? When you said the only thing you didn't like about him was
that he proselytized as much if not more so than the others here, you implied he was trying to
coerce you into becoming a Mormon. Proselytizing doesn't mean suggesting to someone that
they might be interested in learning about your faith and giving you information. Proselytizing is
INDUCING someone to follow your faith. Big difference. My advice to you? Don't use the
big words if you want to convey your meaning better.

BTW, I'm happy for your finding the old high school friend. It should be great catching up on
all the old memories.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Ya'll
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 21:15

No one here...TTFN!

*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 20:52

I was pondering how much we both might have changed in 37 years and what would be the
same... what were we really like back then and how will we relate to one another? I can hardly
wait to see her ... she was like a sister to me! :D

*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 20:50

A fun thing is happening in my life! Actually it's kinda wonderful...I registered on one of those
"find your high school friends" sites and found my best friend, Carrie. We're getting together
next week after 37 years of not knowing where the other one disappeared to... we lost track
of one another when she got married and moved back east. Now she lives in Fresno which is
only an hour and a half from Porterville! I'm so excited!


[ Edit | View ]

R1 -- stored, 15:05:08 04/29/02 Mon

Religion I


The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)








MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 20:46

"I'll bet if you had said you're not interested, he would have backed off. He was not a pushy
man." I did and he did...enough said, OK?

dori
In Response To Kim
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 20:44

I'm just hoping I was wrong and he just got fed up with posting on the forums. But I am
troubled that he hasn't answered my last couple of e-mails. Or anyone else's for that matter.
Just pray for him, okay?

dori
In Response To Coinky
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 20:42

Well, you didn't say he was trying to recruit you privately. The implication I gathered from
your post was that he proselytized here. I'll bet if you had said you're not interested, he would
have backed off. He was not a pushy man.

I have his E-mail address, but I never did get his home addy. Or his last name. If I had one or
the other, I could trace him to see if he's okay.

~Dr. Lucy~
In Response To Dori
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 20:36

Thanks, I was wondering...

*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 20:19

In that addy for Praggie there shouldn't be a space beteen THE and PRAGMAN... My
Oops...:)

*Coinkydink
In Response To Ya'll
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 20:17

You know who I miss talking to is Minder...I think he's got his hands full with his restaurant
and meditation center and I think he was writing a book...(Isn't everyone? ;))

Also I miss TB2, who never is here when I am and never sticks around long anymore...He
must be very busy.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 20:12

Come to think of it...I didn't hear from him this Xmas...the last addy I have for him is The
Pragman@yahoo.com... No last name though. Do you know Jack's last name? We know
each other's last names, because you and I are overly friendly like a coupla puppies! We
should be more careful...there are a lot of nuts out there in cyberland... ;)

*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 20:05

"He NEVER preached to us to join the LDS! He came here to defend his faith from the
anti-Mormon posters and did not claim his church to be above anyone else's. Perhaps you
should look up these big words before you use them? Words DO mean things, you know.
LOL! " Yes, I can't spell it, but I know what it means...and he e-mailed me several times and
asked if I'd like to study Mormonism and was frank about being a missionary. He even sent
me the name of the local ministers to learn more. It wasn't heavy handed or belligerant; it was
polite, but it WAS prosletizing. I just wasn't interested in Mormonism... :) About that time he
quit writing and went on with other things... which is OK too... we're still friends. We send
Xmas cards... :)

~Inquisitive~
In Response To ctaj
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 20:04

2 Cor. 11:13,14
For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of
Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Luke 21:8
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am
[Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 19:59

""What do YOU do?" I have no response to that type of challenge because it DID sound like
you were bragging." I hardly do enough to be bragging about...if anything i need the inspiration
of hearing what others are doing to spur me to action. It wasn't meant as a challenge, but an
interest in what is important to you... I can't think why you'd take it as a challenge...but
misunderstandings are easy to have when you aren't face to face. So I'm sorry there was a
misunderstanding about it.

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 19:13

I suspect that it's just that few answer the call.

Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kim Miller, that Applewhite fellow (Heaven's Gate Cult) ...
answered loud and clear.

dori
In Response To Kim
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 16:44

No, we haven't. Even Jack didn't know his last name, it appears. How weird, huh? He met
him for lunch somewhere, so didn't know his home addy, either. I am worried that his health
became bad again. He recovered from a life threatening disease a few years ago, and that may
have reappeared. I sure wish I had gotten his last name even, so I could check on him. 8-(

~Dr. Lucy~
In Response To Hi Dori!
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 16:16

Has anyone ever heard from Scott?


[ Edit | View ]

R1 -- stored, 11:47:52 04/28/02 Sun

Religion I


The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)








MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.

dori
In Response To Coinkydink
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 12:40

In your post to Murray you said of Scott: The only thing I didn't like about him though was
that he was as much a prosletizer as any one here, perhaps more so.

My dictionary defines a proselytizer as: to induce someone to convert to one's faith. That is not
true. He NEVER preached to us to join the LDS! He came here to defend his faith from the
anti-Mormon posters and did not claim his church to be above anyone else's. Perhaps you should
look up these big words before you use them? Words DO mean things, you know. LOL!

dori
In Response To Coinkydink
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 11:09

When you brought up the things you do in ministry for the Lord it wasn't in a sharing mode. Your
very words after relating the causes you support were, "What do YOU do?" I have no response
to that type of challenge because it DID sound like you were bragging.

BTW, I agree with this part of your post to Gerry: God is a Spirit who can see the souls of
man...He wouldn't have to ask them anything. And I think he will know even if a man has
never heard of Jesus, whether that man has embraced the Light that he WAS given... the
light of God in every soul.

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 9:43

"Not really irrelevant... few of us are prophet material... or zealot material either."

I suspect that it's just that few answer the call.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 9:26

Not really irrelivant... few of us are prophet material... or zealot material either... :) TTFN

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 9:14

"I don't know what the word notionist means..."

Perhaps you should find out.

"We have to be clear here too, that here are few of us who would be the kind of zealot that
George fox was."

To our shame and discredit."

"He had shaggy hair and beard...etc..."

Irrelevant to the discussion.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 9:10

I need to go get ready for morning worship meeting. I'll wait around a few minutes to see if you
are still here, but then it's TTFN.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 9:04

I don't know what the word notionist means, but to clarify Fox's use of the word "Professer"...he
used that to signify anyone who professed to know Jesus or to be a Christian. He believed that
there are actually few of those people who are actually transformed by the light within their
souls... the God-given light. We have to be clear here too, that here are few of us who would be
the kind of zealot that George fox was. He had shaggy hair and beard and refused to remove his
hat for any man, including the King, he wore leather britches that he made himself of half-cured
skins, because he abhorred the appearances of conformity, he never bathed or cut his
hair...however I believe that he was divinely taught from God's Spirit and a true message from
God.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 8:48

"When Gerry speaks of his helping the street people is he tooting his own horn? I don't see it that
way at all. I see it as him sharing his life with his online friends." You say different things to
different people. When I wanted to discuss what we all were doing in our service to god (on a
more private forum BTW, you denounced me as bragging. I was not... I just thought we could
share that important aspect of our lives, as collegues discuss their mutual work. Is it just me that
you won't talk to civilly?

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 8:39

I believe Fox would call you a notionist.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 8:38

"I like the old Chinese proverb, "May you live in interesting times." This was a Chinese curse.

Re: Pragman. I liked and respected scott, but didn't believe the same things he did. The only thing
I didn't like about him though was that he was as much a prosletizer as any one here, perhaps
more so.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Gerry
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 8:34

"However God is not going to ask those who desire to enter Heaven after their death to submit a
resume of all the great things which they have done. All He wants to know from you at that time
is, "What is your relationship with my son, Jesus Christ, whom I sent to be your redeemer ?"

You think you have a God who is just a bigger form of man, don't you? God is a Spirit who can
see the souls of man...He wouldn't have to ask them anything. And I think he will know even if a
man has never heard of Jesus, whether that man has embraced the Light that he WAS given...
the light of god in every soul. Your god is too small, Gerry... Let him out of that little box you
keep him in, please... ;)

Murray
In Response To more George Fox
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 8:06

I declared God's everlasting truth and Word of life freely and largely for about the space of three
hours. I directed all to the Spirit of God in themselves; that they might be turned from darkness to
Light, and believe in it; that they might become the children of it, and might be turned from the
power of Satan unto God, and by the Spirit of truth might be led into all truth, and sensibly
understand the words of the prophets, of Christ, and of the apostles; and might all come to know
Christ to be their teacher to instruct them, their counsellor to direct them, their shepherd to feed
them, their bishop to oversee them, and their prophet to open divine mysteries to them; and might
know their bodies to be prepared, sanctified, and made fit temples for God.

Murray
In Response To GerryB
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 7:52

Mornin Gerry.

GerryB.
In Response To Sim
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 7:04

Good morning, brother Sim.

How are things in your little corner of the world this cool, cloudy (42 degrees) morning? We are
supposed to get rain today.

GerryB.
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 6:59

"7But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature;
because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the
outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."(emphasis mine-GB)
1 Samuel 16:7(KJV).

We can see what a person looks like on the outside. Only God has the ability to look inside us
and see what is in our hearts. Only He knows the true person. All that we can do is guess,
usually wrongly.

Sim 2
In Response To Pig Cleaner
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 5:24

Do you know the major difference between "ya'll opinion" and "our's"???

God himself will bear witness between the two.

Do I need to tell you what the "Winners" and "Losers" receive???

I find it almost impossible to believe that people can be so "ignorant" as to think they can fool God
and escape Hell, yet they do, even calling God "SHE", a sign of "disrespect".

Personally, I'm going to be glad when it's over, all devils in hell, all saints in heaven, I can pray
the "Lord's pray", from the "heart", "THY KINGDOM COME".

Sunny
In Response To dori~
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 2:27

Hey nightowl! Aww you know me, when I can get online, I have many windows open. I was in
townhall chat earlier, a real treat these days, & am now logged into another room. it's late so it is
scrolling pretty slowly, which makes it easy to look in other windows. It is fun to gripe with
others about current events, or just chat about the summer & weather. I'll check PP again & see
who's there. Sweetdreams~

dori
In Response To Sunny
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 2:17

Hey sweetie! Glad I did come back so I could say goodnight. They're still yacking away at PP,
so maybe you'll find a few folks to fraternize with there. This place looks closed down til the
night shift comes buy... grin. Sweet dreams!

Sunny
In Response To dori~
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 2:14

I did? LOL I didn't mean to say goodnight to you, only to Murray. Just now peeking back, but
then it isn't even ten PM here, yet. Maybe you'll peek back in & see this. Hope it's a fine one for
you guys. huggz~

dori
In Response To Okay...
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 2:11

.. I guess I am. LOL!

dori
In Response To Sunny and Murray
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 1:33

You're both saying goodnight to me, but I'm not leaving... grin

Pig Clearner
In Response To Connie
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 1:28

You are both standing on the sidewalk watching and you are telling your buddy what
comes next; however, I'm above the parade in the Goodyear Blimp and can see the
beginning and the end and passing the info on to your buddy

The critical difference you people seem intent on ignoring...

...Connie didn't build the Parade. Unless she's willing to concede the God she claims has
foreknowledge did not also construct World, her analogy is...

...FALSE.

Murray
In Response To dori
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 1:28

"As for breaking forum rules, I don't think you have, but who's here to complain?"

I think I attacked someone personally. That is against forum rules. It's even worse when the
person isn't here. It's really a form of gossip and that is never right. I should know better and we
should conduct ourselves always according to the rules no matter who is around, don't you think?

Sunny
In Response To BBL....I think
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 1:23

.

Murray
In Response To George Fox in prison
Sunday April 28, 2002 at 1:23

While I was here in prison diverse professors came to discourse with me. I had a sense, before
they spoke, that they came to plead for sin and imperfection. I asked them whether they were
believers and had faith. They said, "Yes." I asked them, "In whom?" They said, "In Christ." I
replied. "If ye are true believers in Christ, you are passed from death to life; and if passed from
death, then from sin that bringeth death; and if your faith be true, it will give you victory over sin
and the devil, purify your hearts and consciences (for the true faith is held in a pure conscience),
and bring you to please God, and give you access to Him again. (written from Derby prison
1650)


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