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Date Posted: 16:06:39 04/26/02 Fri
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I
The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice. Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not. --Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a backup forum. :)


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MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:54
My "limited" view has placed limits on what your God can do. That's a fine thing to do.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To TMS
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:53
"The only limits to God are the limits of your imagination, since that's what created Him.

Well, then give me credit for imagining a God different from the one Basil insists I must of necessity believe in.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:53
God is not limited by our understanding of Him nor circumscribed by our definition of or enumeration of his attributes.

Sure She is. Are you saying "perfect" doesn't have the defintion applied? Nor "omniscient", nor "omnipotent"? It doesn't really matter what you call the concepts, God either has them, or It does not.

In what way does God depart from "Perfection"? What item of Knowledge does She lack? What can He not Do if He so Wills (outside of engendering freewill in Her Creations)?

I understand things perfectly. I am using the defninitions of the words as they are intended to be used. If the uses are wrong, state how, and why.
[Verified `Ctaj] `Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:52
You never did tell me what notions your son has about marriage that you find so unrealistic.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To TMS
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:51
Why should this upset me? It is only your limited view of things.
[Verified `Ctaj] `Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:51
God is not limited by our understanding of Him nor circumscribed by our definition of or enumeration of his attributes.

The only limits to God are the limits of your imagination, since that's what created Him.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:49
To really upset you, I'll state the final conclusion:

If God exists, then freewill cannot. If freewill does not exist, then "sin" cannot have a valid definition, since "sin" requires volitional violation of God's commands.

Furthermore, if freewill does exist, then God cannot. And hence "sin" cannot exist, either, since it requires a God to make commands to break.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:48
Already did it. My objections to the vaunted three attributes are summarized by the following:

God is not limited by our understanding of Him nor circumscribed by our definition of or enumeration of his attributes.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:48
Your three attributes are insufficient as well as your understanding of them and of the general subject area.

Actually, the three attributes defined are so eminently compatible with the myth of God, and so eminently incompatible with the reality of freewill that those wishing both doctrines are true are forced to say that my comprehension of the matter is insufficient even though they themselves have not revealed their ability to refute what I say.

If you are going to invoke mysterious additional attributes you claim are not irrelevant, then you need to actually define them. Do so.
[Verified `Ctaj] `Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:40
Your three attributes are insufficient as well as your understanding of them and of the general subject area.

Why? Please articulate your position as well as Basil articulated his. You have a nasty habit of building forts without foundations.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To TMS
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:36
"As you can see, you are attempting to discard one of the three attributes without actually discarding it. If I hold you to applying all three attributes to your God, you cannot envisage free will."

Your three attributes are insufficient as well as your understanding of them and of the general subject area.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:17
As you can see, you are attempting to discard one of the three attributes without actually discarding it. If I hold you to applying all three attributes to your God, you cannot envisage free will.

Ta da!
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Dori
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:13
Are you a red delicious? No...judging from yesterday's posts, you must be a blueberry.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:12
An all-powerful God can chose to allow others to act according to their own wills. Still no problem. And your logic still does not follow.

Only if he does not know what those choices shall be. And thus my logic is still consistent, because I use all the words, all the time.
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To Ctaj
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:12
Bite me.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:11
They chose to oppose God at the urging of Satan and aligned themselves with God's enemy.

If God was perfect, Satan could not rebel against the plan. He could only think he was rebelling because he lacked knowledge of the plan.

If God is omniscient, He knew exactly what Lucifer was going to do when he built him.

If God was all powerful, He could prevent Satan's actions.

So, why is it, then, that Satan bears the burden of blame?
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To All
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:08
My wife is claiming the computer. So I'll have to check in later. May God be with all of good will.
[Verified `Ctaj] `Ctaj
In Response To RonB
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:07
They chose to oppose God at the urging of Satan and aligned themselves with God's enemy.

Right, a talking snake. The fruit must've been fermented.
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Ten Megs
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:05
No, it doesn't. That's why I specified that omnipotence is one of the key attributes. Quit trying to parse the problem and deal with the whole thing as presented.

An all-powerful God can chose to allow others to act according to their own wills. Still no problem. And your logic still does not follow.
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Ctaj
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:04
I have friends over sometimes. I have a cherry tree and a peach tree, where an apple tree used to be. If they decide to eat a piece of my fruit, I don't consider it betrayal.

I think there was a bit more involved here than a piece of fruit, don't you? In the case of Adam and Eve it was a definite act of betrayal. They chose to oppose God at the urging of Satan and aligned themselves with God's enemy.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:02
Yes, but your logic and understanding are flawed. To know what someone will choose is not to direct that choice. One does not follow from the other.

No, it doesn't. That's why I specified that omnipotence is one of the key attributes. Quit trying to parse the problem and deal with the whole thing as presented.
Romans 11:23
Friday April 26, 2002 at 16:00
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
[Verified RonB] RonB
In Response To Ten Megs
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:57
I've been explaining that this whole page. Because the definition of God is incompatible with the definition of "freewill".

Yes, but your logic and understanding are flawed. To know what someone will choose is not to direct that choice. One does not follow from the other.
[Verified `Ctaj] `Ctaj
In Response To RonB
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:56
I have friends over sometimes. I have a cherry tree and a peach tree, where an apple tree used to be. If they decide to eat a piece of my fruit, I don't consider it betrayal.
[Verified `Ctaj] `Ctaj
In Response To RonB
Friday April 26, 2002 at 15:55
And his will was that men freely choose him, not be his robots.

But if He is an all-knowning, omnicient God, he knows beforehand which men will "freely choose" him, and which will not. And if that's the case, they aren't "freely choosing."
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