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Date Posted: 11:55:06 04/27/02 Sat
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I


The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)








MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 9:29

You say there are some who are different...OK, but how would I find them? What churches
are they hiding in? Isn't it more likely that the snakes like the ones from the ACNR forum are
hiding within the very churches that you all here are attending? An you give me a reason to
believe that it isn't that way?

There are many sincere people here...some I like and some I'm not crazy about. But I also
think the snakes are sincere as well. There are some here who are moved by the Spirit of God,
I've no doubt about that either... but I might have a different opinion about who they are. ;)

Murray
In Response To GerryB
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 9:26

Now they're going to tell you that, by your comments, you're saying that God does not have
the power to cause events to happen as He wishes and, therefore, He is not omnipotent. The
problem is that you're allowing them to define the terms and the scope of the discussion and
they could keep you running around like a hamster in a cage until they either tire of it or you get
frustrated. They're counting on the latter. Don't say I didn't warn you. Let's see how it plays
out...

GerryB.
In Response To CTAJ
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 9:24

RE: "If He did, being all-knowing and omnicient, then it wasn't really your choice, was it? You
didn't really have "free will," because it was pre-ordained."

See my 9:20 for the answer to that. Having foreknowledge of what was going to happen is not
the same as predestination. In predestination He would have been the cause of the event.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Good Morning
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 9:24

Murray: I have attempted to get close to several fundamentalists in the 30 years since leaving
that church, even tried to re-establish friendships within that church group that I'd had for years
before. And invariably have been bitten for it. I came to a forum when my home-partner Jim
died and it was the Christians who treated me with disdain. I have been accused of being in
"league with the devil" for belonging to a different political party. Those same Christians post at
ACNR's and here. What possible reason would I have to try to worship with a group who
were like-minded with them?

GerryB.
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 9:20

RE: "Let me try to explain it to you. When you decided to give up your decadent life of booze
and whatever other sins you were committing, did God know in advance that you were going
to do that?"

I think that he did but not because He predestined it but because He, being omniscient, could
look ahead down through the corridors of time and foresaw it.

Murray
In Response To Stephen James
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 8:33

Good Morning!

Stephen James
In Response To Murray
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 8:02

Bigot.

Murray
In Response To dori
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 6:16

One of the many underhanded things Mormons do is use traditional Christian terminology and
redefine it. Then, they go out in the marketplace and use the terminology amongst those whose
understanding of the terminology is traditional, making them think that Mormonism is the same
as or close to the same as traditional Christianity which it isn't. This is trickery, deceit,
manipulation -- whatever you want to call it. He did not like it when I called him on this, not
one bit. So, yeah, I can see why he was "disillusioned" as you put it. As far as you are
personally concerned, I sat here and watched him having you eat out of his hand. You should
be more careful, Doris, you are very easily charmed. In fact, you're the easiest mark I've ever
seen.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Doris
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 2:24

Why is it incompatible for an all-knowing and omniscient God to give his children
free-will?

Because words mean things. Stop being a Democrat and think about what the words mean.
It's not like I haven't explained the whole thing many times over, including today, so you should
be able to figure it out.

dori
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 1:41

That is undoubtedly the most ridiculous argument anyone has ever given on this site. Why is it
incompatible for an all-knowing and omniscient God to give his children free-will? Don't you
do the same thing with your child? Do you rule with a tight fist and never give her leeway to
have a conflicting opinion or do you let her test the tethers and come to judgements of her
own, thus allowing her to grow?

`Ctaj
In Response To GerryB
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 1:09

Let me try to explain it to you. When you decided to give up your decadent life of booze and
whatever other sins you were committing, did God know in advance that you were going to do
that?

If He did, being all-knowing and omnicient, then it wasn't really your choice, was it? You didn't
really have "free will," because it was pre-ordained.

If He didn't, and if it was indeed free will, then He isn't all-knowning and omnicient.

Can't have both choices.

RonB
In Response To Catholic View - Redemption
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 1:04

The Catholic Church further teaches, that man co-operates in his justification by
co-operating, with perfect freedom, with the grace of God, which prompts and strengthens
him to do penance and amend his life. To be allowed to co-operate with the grace of God,
renders his consolation still greater, for it makes him conscious of a meritorious personal
triumph over his own passions and over the power of Satan.

More of at: Redemption

You also might want to read Desperation, isn't pretty

GerryB.
Friday April 26, 2002 at 23:16

RE: "What is relevant is that God cannot possess the three attributes described and still create
a universe with Man's freewill."

HOGWASH.

dori
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 23:04

The Mormon you maligned earlier is probably one of the most spiritual people I've ever had
the pleasure of knowing. There wasn't a devious bone in his body. I do know you were his
greatest challenge and he said the very same thing about you in an e-mail to me when he finally
decided to leave R1 for good, having been so disillusioned with his encounter with you. It
seems to me, you were both more alike than you knew, eh?

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Friday April 26, 2002 at 21:51

"Perhaps, but."

What a use of the language, eh? You barely acknowledge what I said about how doctrine
seldom has much to do with what drives the actual belief system of a church group or
individuals within that group. And, then you quickly began to reiterate your past experience --
as if your experience defines the rest of Christianity. This is my biggest point to you, Jeanie.
There are a lot of very healthy churches out there. If you have never taken the time to look and
find out if that's true, fine. But, don't take your narrow experience and assume you know about
something in a broad scope from that. If they were all so similar, there wouldn't be so many of
them, would there be?

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Friday April 26, 2002 at 21:05

"...we can't see the other's souls nor their lives other than what they reveal to us here.

Plenty gets revealed here. The people who post here regularly are quite sincere. The only one
that I ever thought was not is a certain Mormon gentleman who was I assess as being
extremely treacherous. Not at all what he seemed to be. Some here don't particularly like
TMS or Ctaj, but I do. They are actually very straightforward and post what they honestly
believe. They give as good as they get. Can't ask for more than that IMO.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 20:48

I'll check back later or early in the morning, OK? BTW I think you and Connie are nice
people and would never be as nasty as ACNR...but that's kind of what I said before if you'll
read it again carefully. ;) TTFN

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 20:46

I answered all my e-mail and talked awhile to my son, so now I have to give the puter back to
my husband, (who thinks he owns it! ;))

He's probably hungry too...it's almost 7 pm. TTFN

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 20:39

"Nope. A few posts and it's clear as clear can be. Stunningly so." Perhaps if you and I
compared our assessments of the others fruits, we might agree on some of them, but that is
kind of a futile thing to do...we can't see the other's souls nor their lives other than what they
reveal to us here.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Friday April 26, 2002 at 20:35

Too much of doctrine...Perhaps. But the church I used to go to had much the same doctrines,
but it was riddled with fornicators and liars and backbiters and arguments about who was right
and who was wrong all the time...meanwhile, how could you tell who were the real
Christians...I could count the ones I trusted on one hand. What would induce me to return to
that kind of environment? I can worship God better in my own garden...no matter what ACNR
calls me on account of that. Staying away from snakepits is a wise thing to do...and who can
tell where the snakes are hiding, if the "good" Christians are standing in the same pits. but
perhaps don't see the snakes?

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Friday April 26, 2002 at 20:35

"So you have to look at the fruit of the Spirit, which is hard to see from just someone's
words online, isn't it?"

Nope. A few posts and it's clear as clear can be. Stunningly so.

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Friday April 26, 2002 at 20:32

"I don't think either of them behaves in person or at their churches the way they do online,
do you?

Actually, yes I do. Remarkably close to it. People like this are easily and quickly marked. It's
not very hard at all. They will easily find others like them and they will all act the same way
together. Likewise, if they stumble into a church that does not share their attitude, they will be
noticed there and probably never return.

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Friday April 26, 2002 at 20:28

"However are your doctrines significantly different from Tamarisk and ACNR?"

You make way too much out of doctrine. But, I do not believe that you have never taken the
time to look closely at how and why church groups with the same or nearly the same doctrine
vary. I guarantee you that what's his name's church and Martin Luther King's church have
almost identical Christian doctrine. But look at the difference between the two people. You've
got to try to understand why this is and one of the first things you'll see when you do that is that
doctrine almost always is not what drives a church group and the individuals in that group to
believe and live as they do. As incredible as it sounds, it is the case.

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Friday April 26, 2002 at 20:16

"Perhaps I am a little wary of most fundamentalists, but with good reason, based on the
treatment I have recieved from them."

OK, so now we see that you have been offended by certain people in your past and that you
have not released them. Because of that, you have a visceral reaction to others who it seems to
you might be somewhat like them. This is at least a partial explanation for your viewpoint.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Sooo
Friday April 26, 2002 at 20:05

If being careful about which Christians to trust is being bigoted, so be it...I won't argue that
with you. You may be right...:)

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