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Date Posted: 07:16:03 03/31/04 Wed
Author: sader1970
Subject: HC direction

I had an interesting discussion with a senior member of the HC administration yesterday (NOT from the athletic department). He indicated that one of the things that HC alums don't seem to realize is that a lot of the top students who consider HC and other PL schools are active participants in the "non-revenue" sports in high school that the PL excels in and wish to continue when they go to college. He took execetion to my terming those sports "minor" sports. About 30% of the students at HC play a varsity sport. We don't seem to realize that having these sports is an attraction for the types of students HC wants to get.

HC was NOT noted for these non-revenue sports with the exception of baseball and, many years ago, track. He said the PL was originally designed exclusively as a football conference but the concept evolved and one of HC's biggest adjustments to the PL was the expansion of sports programs to 28 and the need to hire all those coaches and staff. This is certainly a strain on HC's resources because of our small size. As for HC being the President's Cup doormat year after year, he said you have to remember that all sports are given equal weight and track, for example, is 4 sports (men's and women's and indoor and outdoor). So even when we won both men's and women's BB championships, track and other sports neutralized those successes. He cited women's field hockey and usually soccer as teams that do well. So everything is a matter of priorities (infinite possibilities, limited resources).

He also spoke about BB programs at schools like Duke, who he claimed had an average SAT of between 925-950 on the BB team vs. 1300+ for the school average. HC, conversely had about a 1100 SAT score for the BB team and is much more representative of the student body. The administration does constantly look at the role of sports and its fit in the mission of the college. He acknowledged that being good in the revenue sports as a way of getting the school marketed is a "no-brainer." However, he gave as an example that while a Duke winning a BB championship might attract more high-quality students, he rhetorically asked, "do you think when UNLV won the BB championship that they attracted more high qualified students?" He also referenced a conversation he had when RW was hired and said there was only "one book you need to go by." He figured RW would think it was the Bible but he was referencing the HC course catalog. He told Ralph that every BB player he brings in will have to take the same courses every other student has to take and there's "no where to hide" a marginal student.

As I posted elsewhere, he also said that HC was very interested in joining the ECAC in hockey and that has been communicated to the appropriate people. He seemed very optimistic this would happen IF the ECAC does decide to take in another member.

There was little doubt in my mind that this person is looking for HC to succeed in sports and spoke about "branding" (which many businesses have taken to in the last 10 - 15 years or so) - selling a concept. For example, HC does one thing and does it well - liberal arts education - not multi-faceted university with many things pulling its academic resources in different directions. It's a Jesuit/Catholic college. It's got a beautiful campus that appeals to many (especially parents) and now has great apartment style dorm, which is better than most young alums will live in after they graduate.

There is pride in HC's tradition of success in athletics. I'm very optimistic about the direction of the college.

One final conversation to relate. Tom Gillmore, as has been noted here in other posts, brings a full understanding of what it will take to succeed at HC. He's a "great recruiter" because all he knows is the non-scholarship programs having been associated with the Ivy and PL exclusively. Lehigh is already ticked because he's taking some of the recruits that were looking at Lehigh but now are going to follow him to HC. He's got his entire staff hired and making up for lost time on the recruiting drive and making the rounds at alumni clubs. (We hope to have Tom at a RI Club in June). This contact told me that last year we had enough offense to win virtually every game but the defense was weak and that's where Gillmore shines. He described Gillmore as a "young Mark Duffner" who is very intense (our Lehigh friends told us that) who knows when to pat a player on the back but also when to kick him in the butt, too. The atmospshere has already changed in the football program.

Finally, Dan Allen's health has not improved and he is still on the payroll but is not seen on campus. There were some other comments but I best leave it at that other than to say this person was very sympathetic about Dan and his condition.

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Replies:

[> Re: HC direction -- HC1843, 08:35:23 03/31/04 Wed

The fact that this senior admin even mentioned UNLV shows a lack of true understsanding about HC sports and HCs ability to run a clean program. It is always much easier to point to the rejects of college basketball as examples of where HC doesn't want to go then to point to the successes and say, "HC could do it too". I am sure the senior admin you spoke to has his/her heart in the right place, but his/her comments reflect the old school thinking that reflect a school unable to successfully market itself, that is married to the past, and unwilling to take an objective look at itself to bring in fresh blood to make positive change. These comments apply across the board (e.g. admissions...where is that new web page, why is the PR site still posting incorrect, albeit updated info, why don't we publicly brag about our student body's successes...etcetera.)

Again, this person probably bleeds purple blood, but HC needs to look at itself objectively and we are simply too insular to even want to attempt to admit this.

Cheers.

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[> [> Re: HC direction -- cf rivals, 09:08:47 03/31/04 Wed

Agreed. That UNLV comparison is rediculous and comes right out of the Brooks days.

HC would never stoop to the level and further more, we all don't think HC will be a competing for a national championship any time soon.

The administration has got to face the facts. You have 2 $$ sports. FB(which is in 1AA and has had one of the worst programs in that division for the last 10 yrs and loses $2mil/yr). BB which has a ton of tradition in D1, has a great coach went to 3 NCAA's and plays in the worst D1 conference on the planet.

How do you fix the problem? Stay the course and everything will work itself out? Sure it will! If HC doesn't invest in the $$ programs , they will continue to sink in mediocrity and less. It's good to see them realize the ECAC for hockey is a great opportunity, Now what about adding scholarships to that program so they will be able to compete. And what about realizing the PL is not going to grow your BB program and look to a higher alternative. It's a nobrainer just like the ECAC.

It amazes me that administration can talk about all the academic superiority at this school, but they just don't get what it takes to run successful programs in D1 athletics.

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[> Re: HC direction -- nhteamer, 09:12:23 03/31/04 Wed

Great post sader1970. There is good and bad news in your post. The good is obvious; that is, there are those who are senior in the HC administration who do want us to succeed. The bad is just as obvious. To counter the claims of athletic success helping a school (Duke, Vandy, BC, Georgetown)with a reference to UNLV is just stupid.

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[> Re: HC direction -- kesiwick, 09:27:11 03/31/04 Wed

sader 1970, excellent post -- must admit that I am a little more optomistic after reading it -- though I must admit not moving into the ECAC will be a huge downer for me and a big blow to what has the potential to be a nationally competitive program-- on the UNLV front, the school never had an academic rep. to begin with -- the schools that did -- like BC, Georgetown, etc. -- saw the overall academic quality of the student body increase as their teams became more successful --

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[> Re: HC direction -- sader1970, 10:44:22 03/31/04 Wed

Two things:

I guess you had to be there, but don't take the reference to UNLV out of context. I'm probably not doing the comment justice but I took the point to be that it would be good to do well in BB but if you don't already have the academic reputation to be attractive, JUST winning in BB isn't going to get you better quality students. Thus, the juxtaposition of Duke being sucessful but UNLV not.

Second, another individual, a very reliable source, said that they are in the process of creating what amounts to a athletic booster club. The person telling me this was struggling with the right terminology but when I said "you mean a booster club?", the response was in the affirmative.

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[> Re: HC direction -- zipp, 11:18:52 03/31/04 Wed

1970-
Great to hear about your conversation. However, not to shoot the messenger but in some regards the person you spoke to sounds like they're indicative of the problem at HC. First of all, to even bring up a UNLV type argument shows exactly the type of bias this person has against HC athletics. Next,"one of HC's biggest adjustments to the PL was the expansion of sports programs to 28 and the need to hire all those coaches and staff"? Maybe I missed something, but outside of women's hockey I can't think of a sport we've added in the last decade or two. Furthermore, I can't think of any better way to "brand" than to advertise; and that's exactly one of the things athletics does for a school.

The bottom line is that while some might be encouraged by this conversation, I am not. To me, this conversation as it was presented seems to be more of the "Brooksism" athletics and academics are mutually exclusive mantra. While it may be well intended, that mantra is old, tired and (in my opinion) WRONG.

Having said all of that, thank you for sharing that conversation.

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[> [> Re: HC direction -- dadominate, 11:56:09 03/31/04 Wed

thanks for the informative post sader 1970.

can't see how that could really be taken as a positive though, and i hope your friend in the administration there is in the minority. even bringing up UNLV in a discussion of HC athletics is disappointing as there is no relevance whatsoever to our situation. also pointing out how duke has a problem with their 950 SAT average is discouraging. while we will never get to their level of dominance, the respectable student-athletes and respectable guys that duke has in their outstanding program should be the model for HC, not something to avoid! same goes for vanderbilt, wake, gonzaga, and all the private schools on the smaller end of the spectrum with good student/athletes that have had success on the court and brought notoriety to their schools.

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[> Re: HC direction -- Gate Raider, 12:59:04 03/31/04 Wed

I find your conversation refreshing and positive. It also confirmed what I have been saying for several weeks. The PL is more than just basketball and HC is more than just sports. Any school can get a winning top basketball team, if academics are lowered. The hard part is keeping your academic standards at the same time. Frankly, most PL sports teams have an average SAT that is closer 1250. For FB in the PL an 1100 SAT average would be low. Article in the Boston Globe yesterday noted that of the 64 women's BB teams in the NCAA tournament, Colgate had the highest graduation rate - 100%. Standford came in second at 93%. They measured freshwomen starting in '93 and going to '98, the latest figures available.

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[> [> Re: HC direction -- dadominate, 13:20:40 03/31/04 Wed

"Frankly, most PL sports teams have an average SAT that is closer 1250. For FB in the PL an 1100 SAT average would be low."

i hate to break it to you gate raider, but this isn't true. i'm afraid you have a very idealistic view of the patriot league. ask anyone close to any of the programs and they will tell you that an 1100 SAT for patriot league football is not that low, and i doubt that's even the average for most teams in the league. still good considering the shenanigans going in college sports today, but let's not pretend the PL is something it isn't.

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[> Seattle Conversation regarding HC direction -- Chu Chu, 14:54:11 03/31/04 Wed

The Holy Cross Alumni Club of Western Washington (State) convened last evening at the Purple Caf� and Wine Bar. 49 guests turned up to visit with Father Mike McFarland and Paul Scheff from the Developmment office. Sports was not the focus of the evening, but Father McFarland made a few points in his talk and in conversations during the evening that bear on the discussion of this thread. I will report them here, since what was discussed in that forum should also be appropriate for this board.

Father McFarland traveled to Colorado with the Men's Hockey Team, and is very excited about their performance (called it huge for the school) and he is aware of how athletics can help the college's name recognition and branding. When asked about the ECAC, he said that they have been contacted by HC and told that Holy Cross is interested. He said that it now depends on what the interest of the ECAC is, and HC is open to discussion with them. He gave tremendous accolades to Paul Pearl as a wonderful coach who recruits "just the kind of people that you want to have at Holy Cross".

The subject of basketball came up in a general way, and he made the comment that he would love to see a "home and home" series with Gonzaga. No committment that it will happen. Also talked about a Jesuit College Tournament concept, which would be a way of getting some games to raise our visibility. Compared HC with 27 varsity sports to Gonzaga with 18, and said that our small size (1/2 that of Gonzaga) makes funding so many teams a large burden. Said that over 4 years at Holy Cross, 1/3 of the student body plays at least one varsity sport, and 25% at any one time are on at least one team.

Also spoke about Coach Gilmore, who he credited with great understanding of the Holy Cross mission, and with already bringing in needed discipline and reinvigorating enthusiasm for the program. I got the impression that his selection as head coach is part of an overall rededication to the excellence of the program.

The issue of the Patriot League came up obliquely. Father Mike is aware of the positives, which he cited as compatible institutions, with some good rivalries from the past in certain sports, such as Colgate and Army. He is also aware of the lack of New England interest in some of the other league members that we have less of a history with, but thinks that in time, that may change. He cited the American series in men's hoops as one people have grown to appreciate.

I asked about the issue of the new Soccer Stadium, and why Fitton Field could not be used with Field Turf and lights. He said that has been looked at, but rejected for now, due to the fact that Coach Comrie feels that having a natural grass surface is a must, and because the field is unfortunately too narrow for soccer, and would require dismantling of the visitor stands.

It was an enjoyable evening, made all the more fun by the good turn out of HC alums who are doing very interesting things here in the Northwest!

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[> [> One Comment -- HC1843, 15:10:34 03/31/04 Wed

Good analysis Rick but the last one gave me a chuckle.

"F Lee Melchionni ( soph ) - was class president during his junior year of high school. Also involved in the Student Council, the Singing Patriots (a competitive performing group), Kids Teaching Kids and the Ambassador Club as a prep student."

I am sure you are not insinuating these achievement have anything to do with academics...extracurriculars yes...academics no.

This being said, Duke has more than its share of academically bright kids to defend itself against the likes of UNLV.

Cheers.

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[> [> [> Re: One Comment - LOL ! -- Rick, 17:24:12 03/31/04 Wed

1843 -

I cut & pasted that line directly from Duke's site. Thought about deleting the 'Singing Patriots' but just couldn't do it !!!!

Being Class President, envolved in Student Council as well as a school 'Ambassador' ( if it's akin to same at my son's prep school, being a top student is a prerequisite ), are indicative that young Melchionni likely didn't score a 925/950 on his SAT's.

BTW, coming down your way this weekend to visit my nephew, catch the Spring football scrimmage and take in the Wake-UNC baseball game on Saturday. I'll remember to wear my purple HC golf shirt and likely will have my Wake baseball hat on top. If you spot a guy at either game who I've been told bares a physical resemblence to Tommy Lee Jones, come over and chat !

Hope all is going well with the studies....

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[> To: sader 1970 & All re: Duke SAT's -- Rick, 15:00:30 03/31/04 Wed

" He also spoke about BB programs at schools like Duke, who he claimed had an average SAT of between 925-950 on the BB team vs. 1300+ for the school average. "

1970 -

These aren't your words....I'm not shooting the messenger, just the message. FWIW, I gleened the following from Duke's web site on their 5 starters plus the top 2 subs off the bench as regards HS/Prep academic credentials:

C Sheldon Williams ( soph ) - National Honor Society

F Luol Deng ( frosh ) - " An outstanding student ", speaks 3 languages fluently.

G J.J. Redick ( soph ) - nothing noted.

G Chris Duhon ( senior ) - National Honor Society

G Daniel Ewing ( junior ) - " Honor Roll student ", City of Houston Athletic Committee Scholar-Athlete in 2001, Scholar Athlete of the Year, Academic Excellence Award.

C Nick Horvath ( senior ) - Double Major in Physics and English.

F Shavlik Randolph ( soph ) - Four-Year Honor Roll.

I kinda doubt it would logically follow that 6 of the above 7 youngsters would have scored 925/950 on their SAT's. Here's the rest of Duke's roster:

G Patrick Davidson ( frosh ) - " member of the Beta Club for academics in high school "

G Andy Borman ( senior ) - nothing noted.

G Sean Dockery ( soph ) - nothing noted.

F Patrick Johnson ( junior ) - National Honor Society

G Andy Means ( senior ) - A three-time Academic All-Conference award winner. Indiana Basketball Coaches Association Academic All-State Honorable Mention selection as a senior.

F Lee Melchionni ( soph ) - was class president during his junior year of high school. Also involved in the Student Council, the Singing Patriots (a competitive performing group), Kids Teaching Kids and the Ambassador Club as a prep student.

Comments ?

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[> [> Re: To: sader 1970 & All re: Duke SAT's -- zipp, 15:32:28 03/31/04 Wed

Rick-
Yeah I have a comment, obviously Dean Velloccio....I mean, umm, ah, whoever made those comments to 1970 has an ax to grind...

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[> [> Re: To: sader 1970 & All re: Duke SAT's -- hchoops, 17:23:41 03/31/04 Wed

it's good that the current duke team has some athletes who achieved academically in hs--some of their predecessors and the "no comments" for this roster have not--but don't presume that the nhs designation correlates to above a 950 sat--even in strong high schools grade inflation is rampant-i teach in a respected public long island school,and even though many of our nhs kids have high sat's,there are also many in the 900 range

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[> [> [> To: hchoops -- Rick, 19:04:41 03/31/04 Wed

" it's good that the current duke team has some athletes who achieved academically in hs--some of their predecessors and the "no comments" for this roster have not "

Umm....the terminology I chose to use was 'nothing noted' not 'no comments'. You appear to be suggesting that the absence of academic achievment for THREE of the TWELVE Duke kids is proof positive that they were sub-par academically.

Interestingly enough, if I'd have gone to HC's site and run the same exercise with our men's basketball roster, I'd have posted ELEVEN 'nothing noted's' or 'no comments' and ONE 'Was a member of the National Honor Society and a National Merit Scholar' ( Kevin Hyland ). I wonder how someone from Duke might interpret that ?

" but don't presume that the nhs designation correlates to above a 950 sat--even in strong high schools grade inflation is rampant-i teach in a respected public long island school,and even though many of our nhs kids have high sat's,there are also many in the 900 range. "

Sounds like you are very suspect of the National Honor Society. If you teach in a respected public long island school and you're 5-member Faculty Council is admitting 'many' students as members with SAT's in the 900 range, I'd suggest that your school isn't going to be respected much longer.

You really don't like Duke do you.

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[> [> [> [> Re: To:rick -- hchoops, 20:33:12 03/31/04 Wed

sat scores are not one of the criteria for admission to the nhs-many high schools,esp inner city ones where duke and other powers get their recruits, have nhs students with low sats--duke has taken many good students and many weak students as players--what annoys me is when people transfer the ave sat of the general student body to their athletes

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[> Re: HC direction -- sader1970, 15:32:39 03/31/04 Wed

Rick, if you WERE trying to shoot the messenger, I only got a "flesh wound" as they used to say in the cowboy movies.

I can't comment other than what was said yesterday and believe was mentioned previously by some others on this board months ago (I don't have the energy to look for it). This may be a timing issue. I think you are talking about current members while the SAT scores quoted may be a few years ago as I believe there is a time lag on those reports. But it did trigger another point that the person I spoke with said - that SATs are only ONE point of reference and that class rank, what school the person comes from and other factors also need to be considered. There was also a joke that what Duke should have done was to put a "ringer" on the team that sits WAY DOWN at the end of the bench but has 1550 SAT scores just to bring the SAT average up!. Guys, if we don't want to be compared to UNLV (and no one really was), let's not get hung up over Duke either.

It sounds to me that what Fr. McFarland said on the west coast is very consistent with what my source said on the east coast. Thanks, Chu Chu.

The administrator I spoke with also was in Denver for the hockey game vs. UND and, like those of us who saw the game on TV, were very impressed with how well the team played - especially goalie Quesada who was as sick as a dog before the opening face-off that was not due to nerves or high altitude. This person said what we didn't see on TV was Tony doubled over at the bench every time there was a break.

I KNOW that Fr. McFarland is very high on Paul Pearl. He and I had a conversation last year at a hockey game in which he said the same that he was quoted as on the left coast. That's why I felt that HC was NOT going to lose him to that prep school a while back. Fr. Mike is a BIG hockey fan and he knows his stuff in that sport and coach Pearl has proven that assessment right on the mark.

I am now hearing similarly good things about Tom Gillmore in football.

One final thought. Chu Chu, Did Fr. M say anything about a booster club?

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[> Re: HC direction -- Chu Chu, 22:20:00 03/31/04 Wed

I never heard the idea of a booster club discussed. I'm sorry that I didn't ask that question myself.

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[> Disregard HS GPA's and NHS -- Gate Raider, 00:36:17 04/01/04 Thu

When talking about the academic quality of HS students as posted on a college athletic page take it with a grain of salt. First, because of the large disparity of high schools one could be first is his class at school A and 100 if he was at school B. Second, NHS doesn't count for much for the same reason. Third, the standard for a HS academic/athletic honor roll can be very low. Fourth, the difficulty of the classes taken must be considered. For these reasons colleges require the SAT which allows them to predict the chance for success of the student in their first year at the subject college. In addition, since at HC and Colgate something like 25% of the students are on varisty teams, these schools can't lower their standards very much or their overall SAT average will suffer. Colgates average SAT for the class of 2007 was 1380 including the athletes. Now, you are simply not going to have many 1100 SAT's in that group - some yes, many no. There are thousands of good HS athletes with SAT's over 1200. I don't know about HC but, at Colgate a teams SAT and GPA must reflect that of the overall student body.

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[> [> Re: Disregard HS GPA's and NHS -- sader1970, 07:15:04 04/01/04 Thu

Come on, Gate Raider, you DO know about HC which like Colgate and all other PL schools subscribe to the following:

"The Patriot League, which was founded on the principles of admitting athletes who are academically representative of their class, is in its second decade of academic and athletic achievement. Participation in athletics at Patriot League institutions is viewed as an important component of a well-rounded education." (Patriot League website)

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[> [> Got Me -- Gate Raider, 00:55:38 04/02/04 Fri

I do remember reading that. However, I don't know if there is a follow up by the PL. I doubt it. And, Geez, don't take offense at the above Hornung post. It was a feeble attempt at a joke, although, I think Hornung meant it and I don't think he is racist. Actually, as has been pointed out, ND already has more black players than many of its competitors.

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