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Date Posted: 23:05:11 06/12/04 Sat
Author: Sader Fan
Subject: Interesting Football Recruiting Story
Attended a HS graduation party tonight and met a fellow whose son just completed his Freshman year playing college football. Afer a year of prep schools, he was recruited by numorous 1AA schools, including HC and Colgate but, in the end, did not opt for the Patriot League. He spoke a bit about the recruiting process and said that Colgate flew not only his son but his whole family to Hamilton NY for a recruiting trip and put them up at an Inn there (He said the Raider coaches told him they had a $200K recruiting budget for such things!). He was very impressed with Colgate's facilities (athletic and otherwise) and the athletic training staff including the "multiple" strength and conditioning coaches supporting the athletic teams. Colgate accepted him and offered him just about a full ride financially. HC's recruiting effort was not as elaborate but his son applied to HC and Colgate among other schools. His son was not accepted at HC even though the Crusader football staff was interested in him. He thought this surprising as he thought Colgate's admission standards are generally tougher than HC's. So here was one story that seems to collaborate Dan Allen' allegation that athletes HC rejected were accepted at other PL schools.
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Re: Interesting Football Recruiting Story -- Chu Chu, 13:11:03 06/13/04 Sun
Sader Fan,
Interesting. Where is this young fellow going to be matriculating this fall?
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Re: Interesting Football Recruiting Story -- Brad Verdell HC '00, 13:42:50 06/13/04 Sun
The information I'm privy to suggests he'll be attending the University of Notre Dame.
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Re: Recruiting - Colgate vs, Holy Cross -- Rick, 15:38:58 06/13/04 Sun
http://www.ope.ed.gov/athletics/search.asp
Anyone here can compare the FACTS for themselves via this link.
For the year 6/1/02 to 5/31/03 -
Recruiting Expenses
Colgate = $ 303,253
Holy Cross = $ 138,378
Perhaps someone has/or will broach this FACT with Regan and/or Gilmore at one of these in progress receptions.
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Re: Recruiting - Colgate vs, Holy Cross -- NTKHC64, 16:52:36 06/13/04 Sun
Rick:
If I am reading the data correctly, then in ALL sports, HC operated at a LOSS of $7,947,938 and Colgate operated at a PROFIT of $743,956. With particular attention to football, Colgate operated at a PROFIT of approximately $11,000 and Holy Cross operated at a LOSS of $2,102,747.
I haven't gone over this line by line and I don't know all the facts behind the numbers but it seems something is not being done correctly by our administration.
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Re: Recruiting - Colgate vs, Holy Cross -- NTKHC64, 18:53:02 06/13/04 Sun
Well now I have many of the facts behind the numbers and it's not the way that it appears.
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Ever consider... -- Hmmmm, 21:38:31 06/13/04 Sun
...Colgate is the school reporting incorrect numbers.
How many football tickets did they sell? Do the math.
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Colgate sold 45,000 football tickets last fall -- answer, 21:45:09 06/13/04 Sun
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To: '64 on the #'s -- Rick, 19:00:32 06/13/04 Sun
Remember, the data is for the 2002 football season....which AIR, had two lousy weather weekends affecting most everyone with home games in the northeast.
They had 5 home games where the largest 'stated' crowd was 7,368 ( Dartmouth ) and the smallest 1,562 ( HC ). The 5-game average was 5,527. They did not go to the play-offs. Do you happen to recall HC's per game home attendance in 2002 ?
Their tix prices are inexpensive -
Res. Season = $45/$20 ( adult/child )
GA Season = $25/$10
Res. Game = $10/$5
GA Game = $6/$3
If - IF - they had/have 4,000 season tix sales = around $160-180,000 for that season ( stadium capacity = 10,221 ).
Their 'Colgate Athletic Council' booster club appears very active....2 golf outings ( one in Boston ) surely with some amount of 'corporate participation', a few dinners, phonathons....and membership has I believe 4-5 'levels'. Their site doesn't roster member #'s per level. It also doesn't state what % of the funds raised from these outings/dinners/phonathons goes to the football program.
Lacking insider info, it's hard to get a handle on how their accounting/sources of 'football revenue' is so dramatically higher. Since this is official submitted data to a government agency ( a watchdog for Title IV ? ), I can't see how some form of 'voodoo' economics or suspect creative accounting is at work here....why/what's to be gained/risked by Colgate if they tried that ?
They must have realized the $3 million + somehow.
Of equal note is Colgate's football 'expenses' being nearly $600,000 more in 2002 than HC's.
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Re: Interesting Football Recruiting Story -- Observer, 19:14:30 06/13/04 Sun
At the risk of sounding redundant, isn't the info set forth in the previous posts in this thread one of the reasons why many posters support the move to a more "high profile"
league in all sports, particularly mens' and womens' hoops?
Seems the only way to go if the admin wants to 1)continue to sponsor the same number of varsity sports, 2)remain competitive, 3)keep football, 4)stem the tide of athletic red ink, 5)not participate in directed athletic giving or permit booster clubs and 6)not increase the tuition/room and board burden on the current students and their parents to compensate fro athletic program costs/losses. Perhaps, the even-numbered items are not their concerns.
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Re: Interesting Football Recruiting Story -- hc69, 19:30:33 06/13/04 Sun
I agree with NTK. We have to very careful using this data because much depends on how each institution defines "revenues" and "expenses," particularly "revenues." For example, compare Yale and Harvard. According to the data, Yale's athletic program operated at a $10 million deficit. Harvard's, on the other hand, broke even, and not only did it break even, athletic revenues and expenses were identical to the dollar! If you check other PL schools, you'll see the same thing -- for example, Lafayette's program also broke even to the dollar. It's a reflection of accounting practices. That doesn't mean that Colgate doesn't spend more on athletics than we do; that may well be the case but we can't use this data set to prove it.
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Re: Gov't / Title IV (?) data - hc'69 -- Rick, 11:30:46 06/16/04 Wed
Your presence/contributions here have been missed....welcome back !
" We have to very careful using this data because much depends on how each institution defines "revenues" and "expenses," particularly "revenues." "
" It's a reflection of accounting practices. That doesn't mean that Colgate doesn't spend more on athletics than we do; that may well be the case but we can't use this data set to prove it. "
It would be nice if we had a CPA here that could shed some more light on this.
The above referenced site link is provided by the 'U.S. Department of Education, Office of Post Secondary Education'. It is my impression that this submitted data is required annually under Title IX law and is specifically used to analize a school's efforts towards or continued compliance with the Equity in Athletics/Title IX mandate.
In addition to football 'revenues' and 'expenses', consider these additional descrepancies between Colgate and HC:
* M-Hoops Revenue - CU $961,650 / HC $220,054
* M/W Sports Revenue - CU $14,186,515 / HC $1,786,540
* Total Athletic Aid -
CU Men = $3,863,851 ( 62% )
CU Women = $2,381,168 ( 38% )
CU Total = $6,245,019
HC Men = $2,028,110 ( 55% )
HC Women = $1,689,925 ( 45% )
HC Total = $3,718,035
What accepted/approved 'accounting practices/principals' allow for two schools - who are nearly identical in size and student body mix - to officially 'report' so vastly different financial figures on their respective athletic programs ?
As I asked above to '64...." I can't see how some form of 'voodoo' economics or suspect creative accounting is at work here....why/what's to be gained/risked by Colgate if they tried that ? "
Further, in light of these wide descrepancies - particularly between a Colgate and a Holy Cross - of what possible value/analytical use are these 'reports' as an administrative tool within the supposed process of Title IX compliance ?
And the obvious question....Why isn't this reporting/compliance process standardized/simplified/uniform as to accounting practices/principals ?
One other note on this....
The entire Ivy League is the only conference/group of schools that reported ZERO/NOTHING under the heading 'Athletically-Related Student Aid'. Why was only that group permitted to do so ?
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Re: Gov't / Title IV (?) data - hc'69 -- Sader Fan, 17:15:19 06/16/04 Wed
Is there a URL where we can see these numbers?
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Re: Gov't / Title IV (?) data - link -- Rick, 17:46:54 06/16/04 Wed
http://www.ope.ed.gov/athletics/search.asp
SF -
Simply type in HC or any other school to view the various categories of data....
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To: Rick -- hc69, 21:09:02 06/16/04 Wed
The feds don't care about the revenue side of the operation; Title IX is concerned with expenses. Thus there is going to be much more variation in how schools report revenues. Even with expenses, however, there is considerable latitude, as long as the accounting methods for men's and women's sports are the same and fairly compare spending. For example, some schools apportion expenses such as administrative overhead and facilities among all the sports while others make it a separate non-apportioned expense. Either method is acceptable. What a school could not do, however, is apportion overhead and facilities to women's sports while not doing so to men's sports, thus artificially inflating how much they spend on women's sports. (And in some schools athletic facilities are part of the general institutional facilities budget rather than the athletic budget, which is also acceptable.) This data is largely for public consumption anyway; OCR doesn't use it to determine whether a school is in Title IX compliance. If OCR comes on your campus, they'll run their own audit.
As for the Ivies and athletically related aid: As I understand it, at an Ivy all admissions are need-blind and there is no aid available to an athlete that is not available to a non-athlete, thus there is no athletic aid. At the PL schools, however, athletes may get cash grants in lieu of loans and work-study (max is about $4-5K), thus triggering athletically related aid.
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Re: Gov't / Title IV (?) data - hc'69 -- Gate'93, 10:31:42 06/17/04 Thu
Rick -
I'm not a CPA, but I do analyze not-for-profit financial statements for a living. The short answer to why there isn't standard reporting is that there isn't standardized accounting in this realm - revenues in particular are a somewhat arbitrary number based on how a school and its CPAs decide to set things up. For instance, several Patriot League schools are reported to have revenues exactly equal to expenses. That is accomplished by a "transfer" of funds from the general account to the sport or athletic department account in order to match whatever was expended. Not for profits, particularly schools & hospitals do alot of moving money from one pocket to another. As for how 'Gate's revenues can be so much higher, there are multiple reasons. For example, Colgate might distribute all non-directed donations across all departments based on the size of the department while HC accounts for all such donations at the college level only. Colgate also, I believe, has a dedicated athletics endowment. The revenue could be largely the result of changes in the value of securities held in this endowment. So no voodoo, just alot of confusing options, none of which are wrong, but all of which produce very different results. As noted somewhere else in this string, that's why the Gov't looks at expenses, not revenues (though those aren't 100% fool-proof either).
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Ivy reporting -- colgate13, 11:08:46 06/17/04 Thu
hc69 is right. The Ivys don't consider any of their aid to be athletically related so they don't report it. And the NCAA lets them get away with it.
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To: Sader Fan -- hc69, 10:08:38 06/14/04 Mon
". . . said that Colgate flew not only his son but his whole family to Hamilton NY for a recruiting trip . . ."
That certainly is an interesting recruiting story, considering:
"NCAA Bylaw 13.6.2.2.1 Prospect's Friends and Relatives
A prospect’s friends, relatives or legal guardian(s) may receive cost-free transportation to visit a member institution’s campus only by accompanying the prospect at the time the prospect travels IN AN AUTOMOBILE to visit the campus." (emphasis added)
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Re: To: Sader Fan -- jonny, 08:18:41 06/15/04 Tue
I find it shocking that you guys do not have a football booster club..i would guess that most football programs in the country have one. I know colgate recruits nationally and signed seven kids from florida this year did they all have to drive to hamilton?? i think you might want to read the ncaa regs further, this kid could be from florida or he could be full of crap.
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Re: NCAA ByLaws on Recruiting -- NTKHC64, 10:22:28 06/14/04 Mon
As hc69 points out, paying for flying is a violation of the NCAA Bylaw. In addition, Bylaw 13.6.2.8 states:
An institution shall not permit its athletics department staff members or representatives of its athletics interests to pay, provide, or arrange for the payment of transportation costs incurred by relatives, friends or legal guardian(s) of a prospect to visit the campus or elsewhere; however an institutuion may:
(a) Provide automobile-mileage reimbursement to a prospect on an official visit, even if relatives or friends accompany the prospect; however, in that event the trip shall count as an official paid visit only for each recruited prospect in the automobile; and (Revised 1/11/94)
(b) Provide local transportation between the nearest airport for the parents, relatives, or legal guardian(s) of a prospect making an official visit.
Perhaps the location of Colgate and travelling by automobile accounts for a significant amount of the recruiting expenses.
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Re: Interesting Football Recruiting Story -- Gate Raider, 00:07:28 06/15/04 Tue
All this is dependent on comments made by a 17 or 18 year old impressionable youth. Perhaps the prospect's comments were somewhat embellished? Could there be some exaggeration in his remarks? FB at 'gate is big and it would not surprise me that 'gate out does HC in this regard.
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Travel may be part of it -- colgate13, 09:52:31 06/15/04 Tue
but the majority of recruits come from the Northeast. While many fly, a lot don't because they are coming up with their parents.
Sure, we have our share of FL, GA, etc. but at heart we're a NY, PA, NJ, MA team. We know where our bread is buttered.
And I wouldn't cross any fingers that the NCAA is going to come down on Colgate recruiting violations. Take every story from a student or a parent with a grain of salt. How many of us have heard or read a story about a player getting a football scholarship at a PL school? Too many to count.
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To: Gate Raider -- hc69, 08:34:56 06/15/04 Tue
Thought this might draw you out. While the statement was made by the father, not the son, I seriously doubt Gate is engaged in such egregious violations of NCAA rules. It's possible Sader Fan misunderstood the father. But as NTK suggests, one reason why football recruiting costs are higher at Gate may be that Gate is simply more costly to get to. Inexpensive air fares to Boston or Providence are available from almost anywhere; Syracuse is a different story. Transportation is a big chunk of most schools' recruiting budgets.
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Re: HC needs a Maroon Council-equiv. booster org. -- Go...'gate, 11:12:11 06/15/04 Tue
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Re: Travel costs - Syracuse -- Rick, 16:45:19 06/16/04 Wed
Have never had occasion to fly in or out of Syracuse.
http://www.syrairport.org/
Somewhat surprised to learn the patron traffic, extent of carriers and range of flights available from this airport.
Looks to be about 30-35 miles away from Hamilton....shorter than the 45-50 miles between Logan and Worcester.
Would HC pay for a limo/cab ride to/from Logan as well ?
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Re: Maroon Council Equivalent -- NTKHC64, 11:15:34 06/15/04 Tue
A good idea but a few years away at best.
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Amazing how... -- HC1843, 12:53:37 06/15/04 Tue
HC requires a ten year plan to institute good ideas.
I once floated the idea of a junior president's council idea - a take off on what Colgate does, and succeeds at in getting young alum to contribute - to the development office several years ago and was told good idea but we are not equipped to handle it right now. Now I don't know why the individual I spoke with/emailed this Colgate-inspired plan to thought this could not happen at HC, but my understanding is that Colgate realizes (or at least at the time, realized) strong young alum contribution from this acticity. The general idea is a tiered contribution system among young alum that get's them into the President's Council track by donating increased amounts year over year until they finally join PC with a $500 donation (i.e. Y1-$50, Y2-$100, Y3-$200, Etc, Y5-500). Every year a dinner would be thrown (one year Colgate did it at the Waldorf, but I am thinking somewhere in Boston) with Y1 contributors as a break even point but Y's 2-5 incrementally making more money for the school, while allowing young alum to feel that when they give they are also recognized and receive a tangible benefit from it. Seemed like a good suggestion when it was made, but to no avail. I always thought, and still do, that such an event would be something that young alum would jump at the chance to do. An annual mini reunion, which would likely increase class % donations and the size of the overall contributions, without HC just sticking out their hand and saying "give please".
It is a shame, regardless of the subject matter. I stand by my statement that HC needs an injection of fresh blood and thinking in many areas of its operation.
Cheers.
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It's always at the Woldorf -- colgate13, 14:52:54 06/15/04 Tue
but I agree our President's Club is a great thing that gets alums into the fold and starts the habit of giving.
I'm surprised to hear any school will leave money on the table like that.
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Re: Interesting Football Recruiting Story -- Sader Fan, 13:06:26 06/15/04 Tue
I thought the father said "flew" but perhaps my recollection was wrong--that was a minor detail in my mind. I was more interested in the fact that he was accepted by Colgate and rejected by HC. I do know that Colgate paid for the recruiting trip. He lives about a 5-6 hour drive from Colgate so he definitely could have drivin to Hamilton. I certainly do not want to allege any violations by Colgate. That was not my point. I think Colgate did a great job in the recruiting process.
Interestingly, the recruit was put off by the high emphasis on football at Colgate (relative to his other offers) and choose to go to a Division III school that matched Colgate's financial package.
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Isn't that interesting... -- colgate13, 14:51:10 06/15/04 Tue
a D-III school matched a financial aid offer? D-III is supposed to give no preference whatsoever to athletics when it comes to financial aid... But the good ones do, that's for sure.
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'gate and the D3 school BOTH use need to determine -- 'gate88, 09:35:57 06/16/04 Wed
size of the aid package (for football). How many times do we have to go over this. So, of course the d3 package might equal Colgate's.
The make-up of the package depends on the amount of university resources available and the priority placed on attracting this type of student.
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Of course I know that, what I implied was... -- colgate13, 11:54:14 06/16/04 Wed
I know all about need based aid and how a D-III school can come up with the same amount.
I was making a sarcastic twist at the idea of "matching" an offer. Matching means the D-III school saw what Colgate was giving and said, "sure, we'll do the same thing". That is a WHOLE lot different than coming up with the same aid amount independently. In theory all PL schools should come up with the same need amount for recruits but in practice not a single one will be EXACTLY the same. In fact, there can at times be great variances.
Also, "matching" implies matching the type of aid award. Colgate would offer all grant financial aid based upon football talent. A D-III school cannot give preferential aid based upon athletics. Sure, they have their own aid policies that might give a good student all grant, but to "match" is different. A D-III school would have to claim that the all grant aid was based on something other than football.
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Re: D-III scholarships -- Go...'gate, 21:19:21 06/16/04 Wed
Don't believe what you read about D-III not having athletic scholarships. I just learned that my Godson got an offer from a partial one for FB from a northeastern (not NESCAC) D-III, worth about 1/3 of total costs.
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Re: Interesting Football Recruiting Story -- Sader Fan, 16:44:55 06/15/04 Tue
He may have qualified for need-based financial aid for all I know.
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Re: Interesting Football Recruiting Story -- Gate Raider, 01:03:50 06/16/04 Wed
Colgate does an excellent job of reaching out to alum, students, parents and fans. 'gate really makes you feel part of the what they call the "society of families" and, I believe, it is successful. I can't believe HC does not have a booster club. And don't understand why it would take more than about a month to establish. There is nothing to lose unless the school feels the club would eventually become to powerful, try to dictate and result in violations and the lowering of standards. That has not happened at Colgate.
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Re: Interesting Football Recruiting Story -- HC1843, 08:38:17 06/16/04 Wed
I would posit that the admin is scared that too many alums will follow their hearts and give more to the athletic department than to the school's general needs.
In fact, I think this has been confirmed by the requirement that any donation, at this point, to the AD must be in addition to one's regualar contribution to the HC Fund. Crappy policy but not surprising. Then again, this is easily circumvented by restricting the "general" gift to a specific athletic need.
Cheers.
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Re: Interesting Football Recruiting Story -- HCFan, 13:44:43 06/17/04 Thu
The fact HC is requiring a gift in addition to HC Fund is reflective of the fact that all athletics contributions will be added on to exisiting budget, not replacement dollars. An important distinction. Any school that does not require incremental gifts is likely just moving money from pile to pile.
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