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Date Posted: 21:43:28 09/25/05 Sun
Author: MyLadyBanshee
Subject: Re: Rants about the "lost gospels"
In reply to:
Lord Veritas
's message, "Rants about the "lost gospels" (another exploration of one of Sheepdog's tangents)" on 21:38:13 08/07/05 Sun
Ah yes…the venom always seems to return!! How are you my dear Brother D Tomas?? I trust your “ministry” at the Chicken Ranch Brothel is progressing?? Any conversions to your faith from the ladies yet?
Though you weave an interesting and comical tale, my dear sir, I think you should actually review statements made by the people you speak of and not statements made by those who attacked them! Always go to the source or as close to it as you can get. Would you speak to a Pharisee or a Sadducee to learn of Christ? Or would you speak to the man himself, or if He were unavailable, his apostles? Now, I know your way of thinking and NO I am not comparing Joseph Smith to Christ, simply making a point using an example with which you may be familiar.
I happen to have quite a bit of Mormon literature and have not read anything of the accounts you have just mentioned…where could I verify these “facts” you have claim to? I would certainly appreciate your guidance is finding such literature.
However, I believe this discussion thread is about the supposed “Lost Books” of the Bible, and not the “let’s take potshots at the Mormons” thread.
Now on to the subject.
In 315 AD, Athenasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, identified the 27 Books which we recognize today as the canon of New Testament scripture. Many important writings never made it into the Bible at all. The Bishops of Rome and the Pope tried to eliminate the use of these other materials, Gnostic or otherwise, which were considered by the Church of Rome to be not just irrelevant but harmful and damaging (Most likely to the power they themselves wielded over the people)!! Many of the writings are still available for us to read, so in a sense are not “lost”
However, the Bible itself refers to several books that have not been found. Let me list a few;
Old Testament
1. Book of the Covenant (Exodus 24:4, 7)
2. Book of the Wars (Numbers 21:14)
3. Book of Jasher (Joshua 10:13 & 2 Samuel 1:18)
4. Book of Statutes (1 Samuel 10:25)
5. Book of the Acts of Solomon (1 Kings 11:41)
6. Book of Nathan (1 Chronicles 29:29 & 2 Chronicles 9:29)
7. Book of Gad (1 Chronicles 29:29)
8. Prophecy of Ahijah (2 chronicles 9:29)
9. Visions of Iddo (2 chronicles 9:29)
10. Book of Shemaiah (2 chronicles 12:15)
11. Book of Jehu (2 Chronicles 20:34)
12. Acts of Uzziah, Written by Isaiah (2 Chronicles 26:22)
13. Sayings of the Seers (2 Chronicles 33:19)
14. Prophecies of Enoch (Jude 14)
New Testament
1. Missing Epistle of Paul (1 Corinthians 5:9)
2. 2nd Missing Epistle of Paul (Ephesians 3:3-4)
3. 3rd Missing Epistle of Paul (Colossians 4:16)
4. Missing Epistle of Jude (Jude 3)
In Matthew 2:23, there is a mention of a prophesy that Christ would be called a Nazarene. A prophecy, please correct me if I’m wrong, not found in our Old Testament texts.
These are just a few of the references I have found. I have also read many fascinating papers on the subject.
Lord Veritas, stated; “I suggest you tell us how the Gospel of Thomas could have been written by Thomas when he was killed more than five decades before it was written.” All scriptures are copies of copies. To my knowledge, no “original” texts have survived. Even the New Testament came from Greek texts which were themselves copies of older texts. The King James Bible’s New Testament was translated from the Textus Receptus which is classified by scholars as the Byzantine texts, dated somewhere between the 11th and 12th century. It is also interesting that the Gospel of Thomas was not only preserved in a Coptic translation at Nag Hammadi but also in Greek fragments at Oxyrhynchus, proving that scriptural text were traditionally copied and recopied.
I’m sure there will be much more to discuss!!
Cheers!
Banshee
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Re: Rants about the "lost gospels" -- Observer with something to add, 10:44:24 10/20/05 Thu
Ok so there are books left out of the Bible... maybe they were left out for a good reason. Maybe not.
It does however leave some questions.
Enter Joseph Smith who seems to take advantage of this by proclaiming some outlandish (by traditional Christian dogma) beliefs. No one can refute them because all he has to say is "well your church is corrupt and has not provided complete information... here let me show you the "real" truth as revealed to me".
How convenient!
The fact that books are missing from the Bible in no way supports the claims of Joseph Smith. It's simple logic to follow.
He is just filling the holes of doubt to support his own misguided agenda. But in reality the two are mutually exclusive.
If you want to support Mormonism you should chose a different path of argument. Missing books? Big deal! This proves NOTHING.
Anyway, I hate to support the arguments of the likes of BDT and Robbins who are clear hate mongers... however when I see an invalid argument Im not letting my personal feelings get involved.
Peace
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SATAN'S OBSERVER WITH NOTHING TO ADD, GET YOUR SATANIC A$$ INTO THIS THREAD NOW!!! -- Brother D. Thomas, 17:02:54 10/23/05 Sun
Satan's brainless observer,
What the hell do you mean that you hate to support arguments like those of the men of God like Brother D and esteemed Brother Nathaniel P. Robbins! Do you realize how ignorant it makes you look in the eyes of the Christian God, Jesus the Christ, when you say that True Christians are hateful? We are simply following in the footsteps of our Lord in being Judgemental and Intollerant, as demanded by Him, duh!
Our Bible tells the following, to wit: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them" (Romans 16:17). The Lord Jesus Christ commanded, "Judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24). He told a man, "Thou hast rightly judged" (Luke 7:43). To others, our Lord asked, "Why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?" (Luke 12:57).
“I will say it again: If anyone preaches any other gospel than the one you welcomed, let God's curse fall upon that person ( Galatians 1:8-10 ). “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him” (John 3:36).
These are only a few of the passages to support the Christians position of judgment and intolerance of sin to anyone that doesn’t accept our faith.
In the name of the hung Savior.
Brother D. Thomas
Always enlightening the cultural Christian.
http://pub49.ezboard.com/ftruechristiansunitefrm7
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Re: SATAN'S OBSERVER WITH NOTHING TO ADD, GET YOUR SATANIC A$$ INTO THIS THREAD NOW!!! -- Truth hurts BDT, 11:42:27 10/29/05 Sat
>What the hell do you mean that you hate to support
>arguments like those of the men of God like Brother D
>and esteemed Brother Nathaniel P. Robbins!
Didn't I type in English? Or are you illiterate?
Don't you have some kool aid to go and drink now?
lmao
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Re: Rants about the "lost gospels" -- Sheepdog, 17:39:34 11/18/05 Fri
#Ok so there are books left out of the Bible... maybe they were left out for a good reason. Maybe not.
***I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t like it if a government took over my freedom of religion. I wouldn’t like that government choosing what religious books I’m allowed to have.
#It does however leave some questions.
Enter Joseph Smith who seems to take advantage of this by proclaiming some outlandish (by traditional Christian dogma) beliefs.
***Joseph Smith had no idea about books left out or the total corruption that occurred in the 3rd century. He was only 21 when he translated the Book of Mormon. He had a 3rd grade education. What could he have known to take advantage?
#No one can refute them because all he has to say is "well your church is corrupt and has not provided complete information... here let me show you the "real" truth as revealed to me".
***Well, if you believe the first part, which there is plenty of evidence to support the claim, The only question then is about the validity of the “revelation”. Nobody here said that missing books = Joseph Smith is a prophet. He was indeed right about missing books and corrupt creeds.
#He is just filling the holes of doubt to support his own misguided agenda. But in reality the two are mutually exclusive.
***Have you read the Book of Mormon? What proof do you have that it was all his “misguided agenda” or that he was “just” filling in holes? None. You have no proof that there was no revelation. On the other hand, Joseph Smith has many people who testified that they had seen the plates and handled them. Some of those people even became enemies of him. You’d think an enemy would quickly deny this testimony wouldn’t you? But they did not do it.
#If you want to support Mormonism you should chose a different path of argument. Missing books? Big deal! This proves NOTHING.
***It was an Anti Mormon who started this conversation. We cover all sides here. Sometimes we lead the conversation, other times anti Mormons lead the conversation. I was taking each point that Lord V. had made and was answering specifics. Can I not do that? I don’t mind taking any path of argument my opponents choose. This forum used to be quite lively and full of intelligent conversations from both sides...until certain vermin started coming and filling it with obnoxious, hateful, filthy, mentally deranged, language and topic. And here they are, back again, just waiting to be caught misbehaving by the forum host. I think the host is out a whole lot of the time.
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Re: Rants about the "lost gospels" -- Lord Veritas, 15:38:30 10/24/05 Mon
MyLadyBanshee,
If I were you, I would just ignore Brother D. Thomas. There's no reasoning with him, so don't bother. Some people just like to make noise to get attention and actually giving them attention, good or bad, only serves to make them louder.
>Now on to the subject.
>
>In 315 AD, Athenasius, the Bishop of Alexandria,
>identified the 27 Books which we recognize today as
>the canon of New Testament scripture. Many important
>writings never made it into the Bible at all. The
>Bishops of Rome and the Pope tried to eliminate the
>use of these other materials, Gnostic or otherwise,
>which were considered by the Church of Rome to be not
>just irrelevant but harmful and damaging (Most likely
>to the power they themselves wielded over the
>people)!! Many of the writings are still available for
>us to read, so in a sense are not “lost”
>
>However, the Bible itself refers to several books that
>have not been found. Let me list a few;
>
>Old Testament
>
>1. Book of the Covenant (Exodus 24:4, 7)
>2. Book of the Wars (Numbers 21:14)
>3. Book of Jasher (Joshua 10:13 & 2 Samuel 1:18)
>4. Book of Statutes (1 Samuel 10:25)
>5. Book of the Acts of Solomon (1 Kings 11:41)
>6. Book of Nathan (1 Chronicles 29:29 & 2 Chronicles
>9:29)
>7. Book of Gad (1 Chronicles 29:29)
>8. Prophecy of Ahijah (2 chronicles 9:29)
>9. Visions of Iddo (2 chronicles 9:29)
>10. Book of Shemaiah (2 chronicles 12:15)
>11. Book of Jehu (2 Chronicles 20:34)
>12. Acts of Uzziah, Written by Isaiah (2 Chronicles
>26:22)
>13. Sayings of the Seers (2 Chronicles 33:19)
>14. Prophecies of Enoch (Jude 14)
>
>New Testament
>
>1. Missing Epistle of Paul (1 Corinthians 5:9)
>2. 2nd Missing Epistle of Paul (Ephesians 3:3-4)
>3. 3rd Missing Epistle of Paul (Colossians 4:16)
>4. Missing Epistle of Jude (Jude 3)
>
>In Matthew 2:23, there is a mention of a prophesy that
>Christ would be called a Nazarene. A prophecy, please
>correct me if I’m wrong, not found in our Old
>Testament texts.
LV:You made a lot of interesting references above. I will research them as soon as I can (my schedule is tough, so I apologize for my sporadicity)
>
>
>These are just a few of the references I have found.
>I have also read many fascinating papers on the
>subject.
LV:I would like to hear of some of them, if you don't mind.
>
>Lord Veritas, stated; “I suggest you tell us how the
>Gospel of Thomas could have been written by Thomas
>when he was killed more than five decades before it
>was written.” All scriptures are copies of copies.
>To my knowledge, no “original” texts have survived.
>Even the New Testament came from Greek texts which
>were themselves copies of older texts. The King
>James Bible’s New Testament was translated from the
>Textus Receptus which is classified by scholars as the
>Byzantine texts, dated somewhere between the 11th and
>12th century. It is also interesting that the Gospel
>of Thomas was not only preserved in a Coptic
>translation at Nag Hammadi but also in Greek
>fragments at Oxyrhynchus, proving that scriptural text
>were traditionally copied and recopied.
LV:You rose an interesting subject in the above fragment as well, but unfortunately, it does not answer my question. My question was how could St. Thomas write a gospel that was dated many decades after his death. Your diatribe on copying processes does not answer this at all, since it does not prove that he did in fact write the "lost gospel of Thomas", nor does it address the methods of dating its authorship, or call into question the dating of St. Thomas's death. You merely say that scriptural texts are copied and recopied, which is an entirely different subject altogether. I know that its hard to avoid going down tangents in these debates, but next time, please stick to information of relevance when answering an objection.
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