[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement:
Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor
of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users'
privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your
privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket
to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we
also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.
Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your
contribution is not tax-deductible.)
PayPal Acct: 
Feedback: 
Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):
[ Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message ]
Date Posted: 01:44:02 02/28/02 Thu
Author: Paul Angle
Subject: Re: The nature of original sin, the Jewish ideal
In reply to:
Josh Misener
's message, "Re: The nature of original sin, Adam and Eve" on 13:23:12 02/27/02 Wed
Josh I think I understand what you saying here. But there is also some confusion on the Jewish perspective. This has prompted me to dig into it a little more. For now I will give what I have and understand at this point concerning the Jewish teachings of original sin, I will return with more later.
The Christian's have created the claim and assumption that all men have sinned and we must be redeemed by a savior from this sin by excepting the notion that Jesus is the son of God and by that we are saved.
Problems here are many fold concerning the Jews. They do not have the notion all are born into sin by Adam and they have no notion that the messiah is a divine as god being who is mans salvation. This idea of the messiah is completely foriegn to them and amounts to blasphemy for them to believe such a thing.
This is the Christian text:
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." -Romans 3:23. "As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one." -Romans 3:10 "For there is no man that sinneth not." -1 Kings 8:46 and 2 Chron. 6:36. "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God." -Mark 10:18. "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." -Eccl. 7:23
The Jewish:
"Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." -Genesis 6:9. "And the Lord said unto Noah, 'Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me...." -Job 1:8 "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job, and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." -Job1:1 "..Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man..." -Job 1:8 "...there was a priest named Zacharias,...he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." -Luke 1:5-6
Christian again:
"For as in Adam all die" -1 Cor. 15:22. "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..." -Romans 5:19. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." -Romans 5:12
The main thrust of Judaism:
"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers." - Deut. 24:16. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." -Ezek. 18:20. "O ye house of israel, I will judge you every one after his ways." -Ezek. 33:20
[This is most enlightening, we can see this directly refutes the main believed tenant of Christianity in that all have sinned. This notion is often convoluted with the idea that it is the Law which makes all sinners from birth and that Jesus has undone this.]
I will return with another post of what exactly the Adam and Eve story means to the Hebrew/Jews in their perspective and teaching.
PA
[
Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message
]
Replies:
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: original sin, the Jewish ideal, follow up -- Paul Angle, 02:43:06 02/28/02 Thu
After pouring through numerous web searches looking for Jewish information, it seems one must buy a book, to get the real analysis in depth. From all I can gather on the subject of Adam and Eve:
-this story is indeed taken as allegory by the Jewish teaching. More accounts and versions of the garden story appear in the "Pseudepigrapha" a collection of historical biblical works that are considered to be fiction. Because of that stigma, these books were not included in the compilation of the Holy Bible by the Christain sources. This book is a written history of what happened in the days of Adam and Eve after they were cast out of the garden. The obvious notion its all a fiction comes to light in these texts, in one account Eve creates Adam from mud.
According to Jewish tradition, the sin of Adam and Eve was not sex. It was disobedience of God’s word. "Once they gained knowledge, Adam and Eve lost their innocence. Yet, they gained something else: the ability to achieve holiness." (Rabbi Michael Gold - 1992)
Adam's acceptance of Eve's offer is in Jewish teaching, what brought freewill and choice into the world, it did not instill the notion of the damnation of sin to every living human, it brought the notion of death, and mans choice of freewill. His ability to atone to God through his choice of righteous behavior. The Christian's magnified this view by creating the notion that the fall meant all had sinned since before birth and all were damned, that their only salvation was through Jesus. This is not how the Jews see it. A man is judged by his own actions and decisions, by his own sin and righteousness. Only God can forgive sin, only God gives salavation and atonement. The Christian's had to build the precept of Jesus by using the Jewish scriptures to support their claims, they used the Garden story but cut the Pseudepigrapha texts which it came from that showed it was an allegory teaching. Much in the same way the Christian writers ignored the specific Jewish prophecies and direct teachings concerning the messiah because they went against the Christian story of Jesus. Jesus did not meet the signs and prophecies of the Jewish messiah, not one. The notion that the messiah was a divine immortal, as god, or god, does not appear in Jewish teaching because this is a direct blasphemy to the Torah law. Judaism like Islam, is strickly and totally monotheistic there are no sons, or relatives of god, no other gods, no other like him, this is the teaching and thrust of both Judaism and Islam.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: The nature of original sin, the Jewish ideal -- matthew Davidson, 20:33:48 09/08/02 Sun
I think you need to re-examine the passages in the Old testament concerning the perfect nature of Job and some others. It is true that Job was a highly moral and spiritual man, but to say that he never sinned is to assume a lot. I think you will find that words like perfect and upright and so on are A. archaic King James words and not literal and B. Not absolute even if they are the actual words they appear to be. By the letter of the Jewish law and ordinances, if a person offended even in one point, he/she was guilty of all. This means if I steal a penny, I am a murderer and an adulterer and a blasphemer because I have fallen short of the perfect and absolute holy nature of God. God is holy and perfect, therefore He can not allow even the smallest sin to enter heaven, that is why mankind needs a redeemer. The redeemer must be God because God says He will not share His glory with another and because only a perfect sinless being would be sufficient to "heal us by His stripes." Also remember, the Messiah will be someone who is the Everlasting Father, or God (in Isaiah), and the modern Jewish belief that the mesiah is somehow Israel is inplausable, since the Messiah is someone who Isaih says will be punnished for the sins of "my people", and Israel was Isaiah's people, so Israel is not the messiah.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
