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Date Posted: 18:27:29 06/19/02 Wed
Author: Neuminas
Subject: Drummond, Paul, anybody else: perfection and God's plan

I still think there's a disconnect, here.
Drummond: As I see it, no one is claiming that free will, unto itself, is perfect. And yes, you are quite right that God could have made perfection.
But I see it a little like this: I'm teaching my son to write his name. It will be a big deal when he writes his name. He's five. Me, I'm old. It wouldn't be a particularly big deal for me to write his name. so I'm not going to write his name for him, that would be silly.
And so it is with perfection, which is not a destination but an eternal goal for us to long for. Yes, God could create something without sentience which did exactly the right thing. But that's like me writing my son's name; it's already a given I can do that. But for we humans, with all our delightful frailties, for us to do right, to aim for perfection, that is magnificent!

Paul: you can tell me all things which flow from God are perfection. But I think you run into a problem, a contradiction, if you also hold that God didn't plan for things to end up this way. Regrardless of semantic debates about whether or not free will is perfect, what seems clear to me is that an outcome not desired is by definition not perfect. and so, if all which comes from God is perfect, and if the world is not perfect, the question is this: where did the world come from? It seems like if you're going to make this fly you're going to need to introduce some other entity, which is the author of the world. And that seems like it undermines the whole nature of monotheism.

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Replies:

That's fine -- Drummond, 22:04:07 06/19/02 Wed
- Re: In other words it suggests that we should strive for perfection, and yet it tells us we'll never be perfect. -- The Serpent, 01:01:38 06/20/02 Thu
  - Well, there's a big difference between writing your name and being perfect in every respect -- Drummond, 08:37:33 06/20/02 Thu
    - Re: That wasn't exactly my point. -- The Serpent, 02:42:18 06/21/02 Fri
      - Perfection -- Neuminas, 03:45:53 06/22/02 Sat
        Re: Check out "metaphors" next time your looking in a dictionary. -- The Serpent, 15:24:17 06/22/02 Sat
- Traditional theodicy -- Neuminas, 03:37:03 06/22/02 Sat
We are co- creators -- schwabra, 05:09:50 06/20/02 Thu
- Works for me, however... -- Drummond, 12:47:28 06/20/02 Thu
  - No it was never part of Gods plan, -- PAUL., 18:08:15 06/20/02 Thu
    - See that's another thing -- Drummond, 22:12:50 06/20/02 Thu
      - Well thats a wrong picture many have Drummond, -- PAUL., 10:36:34 06/23/02 Sun
        I wouldn't want it even if I earned it -- Drummond, 18:08:31 06/23/02 Sun
        I dont have an ego, -- PAUL., 19:36:35 06/24/02 Mon
        Not interpreting him -- Drummond, 22:29:12 06/24/02 Mon
  - If God put it in motion -- schwabra, 18:46:43 06/20/02 Thu
    - Right -- Drummond, 22:43:37 06/20/02 Thu
      - I fail to see how this leads to any imperfection -- schwabra, 05:39:50 06/21/02 Fri
        Well, okay -- Drummond, 13:47:15 06/22/02 Sat
        Perfection, smerfection -- Neuminas, 04:01:56 06/29/02 Sat
      - If it was Gods plan, -- PAUL., 10:43:24 06/23/02 Sun
        How can he be evil? -- Drummond, 18:11:46 06/23/02 Sun
        He cant and he didnt create it either, -- PAUL., 19:42:08 06/24/02 Mon
        Re: He cant and he didnt create it either, -- Noomy, 04:04:55 06/29/02 Sat