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Subject: re: Your first response toward HB can have others think that you do lean toward Universal Salvation Author: Murray [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 09:04:00 08/18/09 Tue In reply to: JulPisacane 's message, "Here come two cents ( mine)" on 18:02:29 08/16/09 Sun Thanks for the offer to reopen this conversation as it is very near and dear to my heart. Please help me understand the thought process that would bring someone to the above referenced conclusion. Thanks again for your offer and in advance for you answer! [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> Subject: Hi Murray Author: JulPisacane [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:02:57 08/18/09 Tue I can tell you that I have read alot of articles brought to forums ( here as well ) that center around the verse you posted in an attmept to teach universal salvation. Here are two articles online that include the verse you posted ( 1 John 2:2 ) ---as a reason to back up the doctrine of Universal Salvation. http://richardwaynegarganta.com/150%20Reasons%20For%20Believing%20In%20Universal%20Salvation.htm # 33 __________________________ http://www.ais-gwd.com/~cdevans/tura.htm # 19 _________________ Also Murray ,last year on this forum there was another participant who would bring in writings from others that were teaching universal salvation ,and expected us to accept these teachings. HB and I declined. She got nasty and Dori had to delete several of her posts. I think I've been here for at least three years and the only bump that happened here was because of the universal doctrines that came in here and the poster wanting us to cheer it and applaud it instead of receiving Scriptural correction . It is not that we aren't willing to discuss it as an issue , - but we will be truthful to proclaim we do not accept such a doctrine that goes against the whole of Scripture . Overall ,this forum has really been like an oasis to us . This was the intent and focus for Dori having it . The title - Friends Sharing Scripture -- is exactly what we like to do here . We enjoy the discussions on Scripture as well as sharing other events going on in this world today , talking about our own lives once in awhile and bringing up prayer requests to one another . We try to keep it a friendly room , a little cyber home where we can just enter into good discussion without personal attacks. Murray ---please join us and forgive any miscommunication that may have occurred . And if you have something to offer on Judgment of the nations , please bring it here . Hope all of this has been of some help to you . God bless and have a great week , Julie

[> [> [> Subject: let's see if this helps us understand things better Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:21:54 08/18/09 Tue Julie, is what you're saying as follows?: 1.) Other people previously posted some of the same Scriptures Murray did. 2.) Those people believed in universal salvation/pardon. 3.) Therefore, Murray also believes likewise?

[> [> [> [> Subject: Murray, this isn't going to go anywhere Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:28:09 08/18/09 Tue You have a chip on your shoulder and none of us cares to knock it off. I think in the interest of the spirit of this board, I'm going to have to ask you to leave. I'm sorry. God bless you.

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: dori, you're right Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:32:23 08/18/09 Tue It is not going anywhere because I've been falsely accused and you keep jumping in and retarding the process of getting to the bottom of that and clearing the air of it. Ultimately, if you allowed it, this gross misrepresentation of my views could get cleared up and I think it's important that it is. So far, I have not been able to determine how it is that someone could possibly believe that anything I said would lead someone to falsely accuse me of being a universalist. I do understand of course that others have posted similar Scriptures to the ones I posted and they turned out to believe in universalism. Therefore, I was merely asking Julie whether she was making the jump of "others have posted these Scriptures and had these beliefs, therefore Murray must also." I fail to see how my questions represent a chip on my shoulder. If being stung by a horrible false accusation equates to having a chip on my shoulder, then I guess I have one. I think it's only natural to want to get out from under that cloud but you seem to feel differently, for whatever reason. I've also noticed that you have never once said anything that comes within smelling distance of a defense of me. Certainly you know that I do not believe in universal salvation, or at least that I do not as far as you know. Why not? You can email your response if you like. One is not expected, however.

[> [> [> [> Subject: Murray- In answer to your questions... Author: JulPisacane [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 19:01:04 08/18/09 Tue M-- 1.) Other people previously posted some of the same Scriptures Murray did. -- It was your posting of that specific verse as a response to Hillbilly's bringing up God's judgment on Sodom of Gomorrah and then your continued comments after that Scripture where you wrote : " Otherwise, wouldn't the cross be a partial sacrifice? A sacrifice for some sins but not for others? My God does not do things half way! " _____________________________________________________ M 2.) Those people believed in universal salvation/pardon. --- Those people were wanting us to believe in the doctrines of Universal pardon was the problem as stated above . They were false teachings which we will not follow ,accept -or be an audience to . M 3.) Therefore, Murray also believes likewise? You will make known to others what it is you believe or not and it seems you are unable to do so here or just don't want to -- and it looks like Dori has made the call that this may not be the place for you . This is her forum and we respect and trust her discernment. Most of us here need a friendly ,resting spot ...some more than others . To God be all the glory , Julie

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Julie Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:59:14 08/19/09 Wed I believe we are in New Covenant that is a signficant and dramatic departure from the Old. I believe the church has been given the ministry of reconciliation. As it says in the Scriptures, "that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation." (2 Corinthians 5:19) I also believe that, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." (Hebrews 9:27) If someone does not accept that their sins were imputed to Jesus during their life on earth, their sins will be imputed to them at the judgment which occurs after they die and they will suffer eternal punishment in a literal hell. This is at great variance with those who believe in "universal pardon." I believe the weight of Scripture is that the church cannot both proclaim non-imputation of sins (ministry of reconciliation) and also have a role in proclaiming judgment from God of any sort to befall people while they are living on this earth. First, this would be judgment before death which is contrary to the teaching that first comes death and then judgment. Second, this invites the question, "Is God currently imputing sin/sins to people or is He not?" Obviously, it can't be both. Last edited by author: Wed August 19, 2009 16:12:14   Edited 2 times.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Thanks for your response, Murray Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:51:24 08/19/09 Wed I think some of the misperception we had at the beginning of this discussion was because of the seeming judgment upon individual Americans, not the whole population, when some say America is in for a big correction by God for lapsing deeper and deeper into sin. To say that isn't to judge the sinners--it is saying that the country itself is at fault. We as a society have let the morals decay by not continuing to speak out against sin for fear of being called fanatics and right-wing wackos. It isn't a judgment on the individual, but on the population as a whole. And I think that is what Hillbilly and Julie were addressing. Thank you for better stating your position. I hope it clears things up for all concerned.