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Mon, May 18 2026, 3:39:54Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 12[3] ]
Subject: Baptism


Author:
E. Popp
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Date Posted: Tue, Jun 11 2002, 9:09:36

Baptism...Essential or obedience?

What is the relationship between baptism of water and baptism of the spirit?

All thoughts on this matter are welcome.

E. Popp

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Replies:
[> Subject: Re: Baptism


Author:
QUITTNER
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Date Posted: Tue, Jun 11 2002, 12:21:23

As I understand it, baptism by full immersion in (flowing?) water came at the end of the up to then successful admission requirements/tests for applicants to enter the "Kingdom of God", a communal society in the there and then as described in Acts 2:44-47 and Acts 4:32-37. The past sins were forgiven, with the water flushing them away, and the new member was then a brand new, born again, "child" of adult actual age.

..... Probably the "baptism of the spirit" was part of a later version of Christianity. There are now very many denominations of Christianity. Yhey obviously cannot all be right, possibly none of them are similar, or even equal, to Jesus' FIRST version of Christianity.
[> [> Subject: Re: Baptism


Author:
QUITTNER
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Date Posted: Thu, Aug 15 2002, 10:36:49

The Squeezer, there are many different denominations/versions of Christianity. I am not aware of Jesus having been reported to have said anything about his own blood as part of the FIRST version of Christianity.
..... Yes, the baptism, at the end of the procedure for admittance into the body of the Christ, also called "The Kingdom of God", saves, not the water but the membership. But, as I understand it, an applicant for membership had to undergo all sorts of procedures, including vows. Also note that communal living was involved as decribed in Acts 2:44-47 and Acts 4:32-37.
[> [> Subject: Re: Baptism


Author:
BTL
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Date Posted: Thu, Feb 26 2004, 16:08:44

Did you know that the definition of the word "baptize" comes from the Greek ba.pti'zein, meaning to dip,to plunge.
(A Greek-English Lexicon. by Liddell and Scott) Christian water baptism is an outward symbol that the one being baptized has made a complete, unreserved, and unconditional dedication through Jesus Christ to do the will of God.
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Baptism


Author:
QUITTNER
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Date Posted: Tue, May 04 2004, 12:11:31

See Acts 2:44-47 and Acts 4:32-37 for a partial description of "The Kingdom of God", a closed community. Baptism came at the end of the admission procedure if, and only if, all of the preconditions of entry as member of that Kingdom were fulfilled. Compare with modern requirements/vows/promises.
..... Christianity now has very many denominations/versions, quite different from the FIRST version, the one by Jesus.
[> Subject: Re: Baptism


Author:
Jeff Davis
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Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26 2002, 20:49:30

My contention is that baptism in terms of immersion in water is an essential step in the salvation of a believer. In Matthew 28:19, Jesus leaves his disciples with a final command, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost." Mark records this very same dialogue, but includes a vital message from Jesus that Matthew did not; "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, He that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). Through the New Testament, in Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-13, 8:38, 9:18, 16:15, 16:33, 18:8, 19:3-5, and 22:16, those who come to a belief in Christ are baptized immediately, indicating a sense of urgency on the part of the apostles. "Believe and be baptized" is a recurring message from the apostles, showing perhaps that the two are equally necessary in the work of salvation.
[> [> Subject: Re: Baptism


Author:
QUITTNER
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Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28 2002, 9:48:11

Yes, but the gospel writers, or later editors, omitted what happened between the "believe" and the "Baptism" --> the whole (difficult?) entrance requirements with the vows relating to personal property and moral/ethical future behavior. And, yes, Baptism came at the end, after which the applicants were admitted to membership of the Kingdom of God/Heaven; they were then "The Poor". Compare with the entrance requirements to modern religious orders, including monasteries, convents, monks, nuns, etc., and also read what was the practice in a similar, possibly related, community that lived near Qumran and left us their "Dead Sea Scrolls".
[> [> Subject: Re: Baptism


Author:
The Squeezer
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Date Posted: Sun, Aug 04 2002, 20:00:00

It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses from all sin not water. If one looks to the water, they are looking carnally.
It fact they are making baptism an idol.

It is the baptism into the body of Christ that saves not the water.

The Squeezer.
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Baptism


Author:
QUITTNER
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Date Posted: Mon, Aug 19 2002, 8:10:10

The Squeezer: Did Jesus say that? If so, where in the four gospels does it say so?
[> Subject: Re: Baptism


Author:
Robert Wilson
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Date Posted: Tue, Sep 24 2002, 21:37:20

I equate baptism in the Holy Spirit with baptism by water. The early church, Tertullian being a good example, believed that when we are baptized in water, we receive the Holy Spirit. There's lots of documentation for the association of the 2 things (receiving the Spirit and being water baptized) in the early church, most notably the practice of charismation at baptism. So when it says, "So-and-so was baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in other tongues and prophesied," I take it to mean, "So-and-so was water baptized, which we all know means he received the Holy Spirit, and he -continually- (look at the verb tenses here) spoke in other tongues and prophesied/preached, meaning he continually proclaimed the gospel in his own native tongue or dialect as he lived his life after baptism."

Note that on the issue of "speaking in tongues," the only problems arise in Corinth. At Corinth, where lots of people who spoke different dialects of Aramaic, Latin, and other languages came together to trade, they evidently had trouble with people using various dialects in church worship without taking regard for their translation into the lingua franca of the day (Greek, thanks to Alexander the Great) so that everyone could understand what was going on. Incidentally, the earliest liturgies of the church are all in Greek! Looks like somebody listened to Paul! But we read that stuff today and think, "Oh, I need to speak in some unknown tongue if I'm really baptized in the Spirit." But is that what the Bible says? When the writer of Acts says of a convert, "he spoke in OTHER tongues," why do we ASSUME he means that the convert spoke in a tongue "other" than the CONVERT'S own? Isn't it more likely that the writer is saying that the convert spoke a tongue "other" than that of the WRITER? Take care, all ye Pentecostals! LOL. There is plenty of room for ecstatic utterances in the New Testament, as well as the Old, though. If anybody's curious I'll tell you where I think they fit.
[> Subject: Onequickquestion


Author:
Raphael
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Date Posted: Fri, Nov 08 2002, 14:33:54

Quick question : if baptism is essential for salvation, then why didn't Jesus baptize anyone?
[> [> Subject: Re: Onequickquestion


Author:
B. Bellrook
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Date Posted: Sat, Jul 24 2004, 9:17:08

I know that you already know that Jesus was baptized. The opening of the sky and the voice from above, "This is my son..." What's funny is that you never hear of Jesus doing any baptizing! Of course, asking why he never did is like asking why he didn't just end world poverty and hunger while he was there, or why he agreed to turn water into wine for a wedding. He was a man acting on his own free will at those times. As to why he didn't baptize anyone...he did. According to modern Christian theology in nearly every denomination, his dying on the cross allows for "baptism through blood", or the salvation of a soul. Water? Who cares?
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Onequickquestion


Author:
E. Popp
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Date Posted: Mon, Jul 26 2004, 14:57:15

B,

If I may ask, where does scripture indicate "baptism through blood?" I am only familiar with baptism by water (administered by John the Baptist and Apostles) and a baptism by the Holy Spirit (i.e. Mark 1:8, Acts 1:4,5).

E. Popp


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