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Date Posted: 14:35:38 08/11/02 Sun
Author: Glory
Subject: I'll tell you what else is not gonna fly...
In reply to:
UHC
's message, "Well Hey I've got a minute or two" on 10:21:09 08/10/02 Sat
...the idea that Xander has to "forgive" Buffy for sleeping with Spike. That's crap. If there's anything Xander needs to forgive Buffy for, it might be forgiving her for not telling him about it. And not because she needs his approval for doing it, either. If you wanna argue that Buffy wronged Xander (and Willow too, let's not forget) by not telling her best friends what was going on with her, I'll buy that. She certainly did shut her friends out of her life for a while. And for that, sure, she owes them an apology. But as far as sleeping with Spike goes, whether it was a mistake or not, she does not need to apologize to ANYONE for that. Except perhaps to Spike, if she feels she was using him or leading him on.
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Re: Well Hey I've got a minute or two -- UHC, 19:53:43 08/11/02 Sun [1]
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHh
STupid stupid clear button.
There was several pages here. WAS!!!!!!!!!
Ok
not going to retype everything.
Here is what I what I think Anya needs to be forgiven for. Seeking to physically harm, maim or even Kill, or wish out of existance, Xander. Seeking vengence on him way beyond the pain he caused her. What she attempted (and for some reason is forgiven simply because she failed) was basically murder.
Let me try to put into perspective what I see this as.
What if.
What if the situation was switched? What would the public reaction have been if HB had been reversed. And Anya had dumped Xander just before the wedding, And then Xander were to be hurt horribly, and then become enraged that she would do this. And then a few days later, She feels horrible about what she does. And she comes to him to apologize for what happened. To ask for forgiveness. To tell him she still loves him. To plead with him for a second chance. But he won't forgive her, he is too angry at her, to engulfed in rage at being embarrassed in front of his family to let go of his anger. And he grabs the gun by the door and goes to shoot her with it, he fires 3 times but the gun doesn't fire. And then for a whole Day Xander does nothing but search for weapons to kill her or torture her with. Only to instead end up sleeping with Anya's coworker/rival Hallie.
Would you be able to just ignore what Xander did. Call it just blind rage and say its no big deal. What would you say?
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"Perspective" is a key word here. -- Glory, 23:16:01 08/11/02 Sun [1]
Church, you are forgetting that the style the Buffyverse is written in is not the same as "real-life" fiction. Operatic, even. You cannot judge what is going on by normal reality standards the same way you can a show like, say, NYPD Blue or Law & Order. Buffy is written as over the top, campy sometimes. Anya is a Vengeance demon. It's what she does. It's what she did before she met Xander and everyone knows that.
In a show which routinely uses alternate realities, spells, dreams, and the like, it is completely appropriate for Anya to try to curse Xander horrible. The show has always played around with rules rahter than strictly following them. And you'll note she couldn't do it, because of a rule Joss invoked. Oh, look at that. Too bad. Vengeance demons can't grant their own wishes. Isn't that convenient. Made for a damn funny episode too, didn't it?
My point is, in the Buffyverse, Anya trying to work black magic on Xander is completely different than Xander grabbing a gun and blowing her brains out in a crime of passion. The ratio of magickal (and therefore, undoable) violence to physical violence (undoable) on this show has got to be at least 3-1. This is not realistic fiction. The nornmal standards of good/ evil, chaos/order, life/death/right/wrong are constantly being played with and stretched. A think you're interpreting things a little too literally.
Well, you wanted your demon back, didn't you? ;) I'm not trying to antagonize you, I'm just speaking my mind. Hopefully we can get a fun convo going. Or you could delete me. Whatever you want, sweet Board Daddy, it's your world. *kiss*
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You've brought this up before and I do n't agree -- UHC, 23:47:51 08/11/02 Sun [1]
I understand what you are saying but I disagree. Intent is still there. And whether it was mystical or not. to me she did this. Now yes you are right. The audience in no way saw it as I did. but to me this is what she did to Xander. To me she is an attempted murderer of her boyfriend. It was played off as funny as they have done before. But I thought it was anything but.
And I still hold that my initial point was lost by how I worded what I said.
Its possibly not that Xander needs to forgive her, and he really never knew all the vengence stuff she was trying to do. But Xander had some huge issues with her sleeping with Spike. And from the beginning of season spoilers, it seems he is over them. This has suprised me. It seems like they had him forget. Now I know you can argue all day long whether or not he should forgive and should get over it.
But I"m saying that the writers apparently did. And Xander is not known for letting a thing go easily.
My key worry was that if they have him let that go, they would have him be easier on Spike too. And that much screwing with Xander's character with no reason I wouldn't like. If they give a reason he gets past Spike's acts, then I can maybe understand.
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But you're forgetting that Xander can do no good! -- Rachel, 03:49:58 08/12/02 Mon [1]
Whatever he does is immediately jumped on, and a load of Xander bashage ensues! Whether it's not deserting Anya, it's him not knocking on the door! uuuuuuugh! And had it been Xander who tried to rape Buffy ... well, i think you can imagine the reaction of all Xander haters then! But if any other character does these things, which to me, are a bigger scale of badness, and have more harmful effects on people, then they are forgiven.
(OK, deep breath Rachel, before you get too mad at people!!! *Deep breath* OK.)
*sigh* and if Xander tries to correct his wrongs, he's attacked again. Why? for goodness sakes! I don't get it!
I very much agree with your Anya thing. She tried to kill him, do some really gross kinds of torturing him, and even tried to make it like he'd never existed at all. And she was doing this with all seriousness, and believed she could do it. And when she couldn't, did she give up? No. She tried to get his closest friends to wish it upon him. I see your point totally, and it is scary that she was able to get away with it without a blink of an eyelid.
And I thank you for this safety net that is your castle. At least people will listen to your Xander points, and not scrutinise him for the tiniest things.
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Ok Rachel, first let me say that Church prolly missed you horribly!! You Xander lover you;-) -- Phae, 09:09:46 08/12/02 Mon [1]
Second, I am NOT a Xander hater. Rather I see his good and his bad faults. I do not place him higher than any other character (nor lower). Xander has some atonements as well. Xander is not blameless. Likewise, Anya, Buffy, Spike. None of them are blameless. They spiraled down and out of control in S6. Hopefully S7 will have them picking themselves up, moving forward, stopping the petty feelings, showing more adult feelings.
If Xander cannot find it in his heart to forgive Anya her sleeping with Spike, then Xander needs to move on.
Likewise, if Anya can not forgive Xander for leaving her at the altar, then showing no signs of commitment after they spoke again, then she needs to move on, harboring no ill will.
Xander and Buffy need to re-connect, show support, begin to build the trust they lost when they were both scrambling through the trials and tribulations of S6.
Spike, newly souled, will need to show remorse ............... or not. But like I've said before, no more gray for him. I would like him truly redeemed, or truly evil. Just for kicks. Just to see JM do it either way. He's muddied the waters well enough, very successfully. Let's see him move in one direction or the other and stay there. Could be interesting. The great battle at the end could be between he and Xander.
As far as forgiving the other characters - no. I don't overlook what other characters have done either. I don't forgive Spike his SR actions. My "whys" will have to be answered. Also, he showed some remorse already, but will have to follow-up into S7 with this attitude if his actions are going to be forgiven in my mind. Buffy, she has a lot of loose ends to tie up.
One thing tho, it is hard to speculate on how a character is thinking or acting in S7 prior to seeing it. The spoilers only provide a sketch. Actual viewing fleshes it out. I know I am guilty of getting worked up before seeing a show. Then when I see it, it is nothing like what I've read about prior to viewing. Likewise, wildfeeds are not the same as viewing it.
Welcome back Rach!! *I saw Church weeping with joy upon your return!* :-) Keep up the good B/X fight!!
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Thankyou Phae! Wow, you got a lot to say! -- Rachel, 09:42:05 08/12/02 Mon [1]
And I wasn't refering to you when i mentioned Xander haters. You know I'd scream and yell at you personally, if i had a problem! hahahahhaaaaaaa!
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Sorry, yes I know that (and I hope you would too!) *smooch* -- Phae, 09:51:55 08/12/02 Mon [1]
Just standing up for my comments here in this thread is all. I just don't think I see things the same way as sweet, handsome, sexy Church does .... and he has the power to DELETE me!!! So, I try to clarify as I go along and reread things and have time to sleep on things, etc., etc., so I just added on after your response.
And I say it again, I just know the White Knight is grinning from ear to ear now that you, the Pink Knight - defender of Xander, fighter for B/X - have returned from your journeys!! :-)
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lol! Well, if i can just get my hands on that sexy white knight, I KNOW he'd grin from ear to ear! -- Rachel, 10:37:27 08/12/02 Mon [1]
My comments weren't made at you, my dear! Nooooo, i'd just read some things on "another" board, and was unleashing my anger into a little post. hehe!
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LOL!! :-D -- Phae, 10:53:17 08/12/02 Mon [1]
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