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Date Posted: 10:21:09 08/10/02 Sat
Author: UHC
Subject: Well Hey I've got a minute or two
I just stumbled accross something in the spoilers, that while I know I saw it before, I'm amazed that I didn't think of this from this angle.
In the spoilers it says Xander tries to woo back Anya. Now I know alot of you out there are going, he has to work damn hard, and I know I have made it clear that its not what I want. But I want to know if this means Xander has totally forgotten about the Anya Spike encounter and what happened, and that he has forgiven her for this? Don't get me wrong I"m not making a judgement on whether he should or shouldn't (thats a longer more complicated rant) I'm just curious if they are kinda slipping back on a couple things. While I know Xander's image would prolly benefit from him learning to be a little more forgiving, it just feels a little like they might be back peddling on stuff that happened last season. Does this mean he is also going to now just be cool with Spike being around again, especially before they find out Spike is souled? Because if they do that its going to feel like they are almost ignoring most things that happened in season 6.
K now is where I get into my judging. I can understand Xander forgiving Anya for sleeping with Spike, obviously if he forgives Buffy for it, he better forgive Anya. Though I still think there is more there because Anya did it knowing that Xander still loved her so it was a little close to cheating not quite but she was still in full knowledge that she was hurting him. But as far as Xander not saying anything about Spike and the rape. Sorry thats not gonna fly. gotta run
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You're not apartment hunting .... you'll be at a bar watching the Twins!! ;-) -- Phae, 15:44:16 08/10/02 Sat [1]
I believe Xander's trying to woo back Anya may be the last ditch effort on his part to get back together. Afterall, he comes into a little money. Has gained some confidence after saving the world. Still has feelings for Anya. So, yes, I believe this spoiler is to tie up the loose end that is Anya/Xander.
Now, as far as forgiveness is concerned ... there is nothing to forgive. Oh wait, that's right ... Anya must forgive Xander for leaving her at the altar. Then during their conversation after Hell's Bells when she wanted to hear commitment from him, he just couldn't (wouldn't) commit. So, after their conversation, there was no possible way she could have felt that Xander loved her (yes, cared about her, but love and wanted to be with her for the rest of their lives ... no). So Anya must forgive him. The future of their relationship is not hinged on Xander "forgiving" Anya of her sin of sleeping with Spike. The future of their relationship hinges on both of them able to pick themselves up from the disaster that started in Hell's Bells, and move forward. With no residual hatred. The trust in the relationship will take longer to repair ON BOTH THEIR PARTS!!
So, I see this as a healthy, strong, move on Xander's part to let the past rest.
I haven't heard one spoiler indicating Xander is "ok" with Spike. I'm betting he will NEVER be "ok" with Spike around.
Why the Hell does he need to forgive Buffy for sleeping with Spike? I don't get this. He did not seek any of their approval when he got involved with Anya - responsible for The Wish fiasco. Friends are friends and will stick with you through thick or thin. Forgive is not the word I would use here for the situation between Xander and Buffy. They need to come to an understanding that their friendship is important and that they support each other. But, if I were Buffy and Xander walked up to me and said "I forgive you for sleeping with Spike." I'd be all sarcastic and say, "oooo, THANK YOU, I was so worried that you could never forgive me for SLEEPING WITH WHOMEVER I WANT!!!"
**********
Anya did it knowing that Xander still loved her so it was a little close to cheating not quite but she was still in full knowledge that she was hurting him.
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I do not believe Anya intentionally went into the situation to hurt Xander. And I believe that she did NOT know Xander still loved her. I believe she felt that there was nothing for her there. Xander's love had turned cold or was never strong enough to begin with. She did not cheat. They were no longer together. She was not in full knowledge that she was hurting him because she did not go into it intending to sleep with Spike (it just moved beyond comforting words to comfort sex) and, had the cameras not been there, Xander would have been non the wiser (not saying that makes it right, but the intent was NOT to hurt Xander).
K. That said, I think Spike's got some trust to build up, some things to prove, and I don't think it will matter one iota to Xander.
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Phae.......why does your post sound like it comes from a man, and...... -- Lijdrec, 17:15:20 08/10/02 Sat [1]
........mine sounds like it comes from a woman??
hehehehe!
;-.)
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Whew! You're right. My answer does sound more manly than yours!! ... ;-) -- Phae, 17:34:44 08/10/02 Sat [1]
Good response! I agree - amends are required all around.
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Well, you know Church....... -- Lijdrec, 17:13:53 08/10/02 Sat [1]
I am not sure that you can equate Xander's emotional response to Buffy's relationship with Spike along with the liason the Anya had with Spike. Primarily this is because Xander's relationships with Anya and Buffy are on completely different bases and the circumstances behind each are quite different. To say that Xander should forgive Anya because he forgave Buffy is, well, very wrong on oh so many levels.
Church, from one man to another.... try to turn off the testosterone tap for a while. Xander is not the one in the right here with either Buffy and Spike or with Anya. There is no right and wrong in these relationships, there should be only an equality of purpose. When a person in any relationship, whether it be a friend or a lover, starts thinking like that then you are headed for real disaster. Buffy's relationship with Spike is not the issue between Xander and Buffy. The issue was the trust that two friends share between each other. That trust was not forthcoming from Buffy; and Xander in kind gave her many reasons not to extend that trust. Take a good look at their reconciliation in SEEING RED, they did not compare each others transgressions, only accepted their own culpability for the strain in their friendship.
------------------------------------------------------------
From SEEING RED
------------------------------------------------------------
XANDER: How did we get here?
BUFFY: Scenic route. Long drive.
XANDER: These last few weeks...
BUFFY: I know.
XANDER: I thought I hit bottom, but... It hurt. That you didn't trust me enough to tell me about Spike. It hurt.
BUFFY: I'm sorry. I should have told you.
XANDER: Maybe you would have. If I hadn't given you so many reasons to think I'd be an ass about it.
BUFFY: Guess we've both done a lot of things lately we're not proud of.
XANDER: Think I got you beat.
BUFFY: Wanna compare?
XANDER: Not so much.
They share a smile. It fades quickly from Xander's face.
XANDER (cont'd): I don't know what I'd do... without you and Will.
BUFFY: Let's not find out.
She takes him in her arms. He hugs her close, tears of relief breaking loose as he finally lets go of his anger and pain. A long beat.
------------------------------------------------------------
That was two friends coming to terms each with their own transgressions as concerned the other and voicing it, in short, asking but not demanding forgiveness of the other. If Xander had been self-righteous in seeking Buffy's apology or in meting out his forgiveness, their relationship would have become more strained and perhaps even ended. Thankfully, their commiseration was a mutual and caring sharing of their own failings.
With Anya it must be the same. Of course, that is a quite difficult thing to do with a lover; but it will be the measure of the man, Xander, and the woman, Anya, if they should do it, reconcile. But reconciliation does not always mean that their relationship will be the same as before. Most likely, it will be quite different and may not even come to be that of between a man and a woman.
Forgiveness is not what Anya needs or deserves from Xander, what is needed from Xander is an understanding of Anya's feelings, fears, and desires and the reverse is necessarily true also. The rift that came to their relationship is a most complex issue grounded in Xander's fears, Anya's past, and their mutual lack of true communication. They are mutually to blame for what became of their relationship. Xander, if he does indeed want to find the love he had with Anya, will put the past behind him and look to the future. That he can do such a thing, that it is in his character, is shown in the way that he and Buffy reconciled.
Again, Anya having a liason with Spike (actually it was really William, but that is for another board) is not the issue, even though it would come to hurt Xander. Xander and Anya have much to work out, Xander must come to terms with his own fears and Anya will eventually have to choose between love and her role as a VD. For me, Anya's choice was a moment of weakness, not the empowerment that some women watchers would consider it to be. However, I think that it will be part of the measure of Xander to not consider that decision as an important stumbling block to furthering their relationship. It was the love that grew between them over the years that had bolstered Anya's image as human again. If he can prove it, it will be Xander's love that will force Anyanka into re-making that very same decision.
That, my friends, may be The Greatest Love Story Ever Told on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Uhh.... my guess is that is will also turn out to be the most tragic as well, such are the ways of the Joss, Amen....
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I'll tell you what else is not gonna fly... -- Glory, 14:35:38 08/11/02 Sun [1]
...the idea that Xander has to "forgive" Buffy for sleeping with Spike. That's crap. If there's anything Xander needs to forgive Buffy for, it might be forgiving her for not telling him about it. And not because she needs his approval for doing it, either. If you wanna argue that Buffy wronged Xander (and Willow too, let's not forget) by not telling her best friends what was going on with her, I'll buy that. She certainly did shut her friends out of her life for a while. And for that, sure, she owes them an apology. But as far as sleeping with Spike goes, whether it was a mistake or not, she does not need to apologize to ANYONE for that. Except perhaps to Spike, if she feels she was using him or leading him on.
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Re: Well Hey I've got a minute or two -- UHC, 19:53:43 08/11/02 Sun [1]
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHh
STupid stupid clear button.
There was several pages here. WAS!!!!!!!!!
Ok
not going to retype everything.
Here is what I what I think Anya needs to be forgiven for. Seeking to physically harm, maim or even Kill, or wish out of existance, Xander. Seeking vengence on him way beyond the pain he caused her. What she attempted (and for some reason is forgiven simply because she failed) was basically murder.
Let me try to put into perspective what I see this as.
What if.
What if the situation was switched? What would the public reaction have been if HB had been reversed. And Anya had dumped Xander just before the wedding, And then Xander were to be hurt horribly, and then become enraged that she would do this. And then a few days later, She feels horrible about what she does. And she comes to him to apologize for what happened. To ask for forgiveness. To tell him she still loves him. To plead with him for a second chance. But he won't forgive her, he is too angry at her, to engulfed in rage at being embarrassed in front of his family to let go of his anger. And he grabs the gun by the door and goes to shoot her with it, he fires 3 times but the gun doesn't fire. And then for a whole Day Xander does nothing but search for weapons to kill her or torture her with. Only to instead end up sleeping with Anya's coworker/rival Hallie.
Would you be able to just ignore what Xander did. Call it just blind rage and say its no big deal. What would you say?
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"Perspective" is a key word here. -- Glory, 23:16:01 08/11/02 Sun [1]
Church, you are forgetting that the style the Buffyverse is written in is not the same as "real-life" fiction. Operatic, even. You cannot judge what is going on by normal reality standards the same way you can a show like, say, NYPD Blue or Law & Order. Buffy is written as over the top, campy sometimes. Anya is a Vengeance demon. It's what she does. It's what she did before she met Xander and everyone knows that.
In a show which routinely uses alternate realities, spells, dreams, and the like, it is completely appropriate for Anya to try to curse Xander horrible. The show has always played around with rules rahter than strictly following them. And you'll note she couldn't do it, because of a rule Joss invoked. Oh, look at that. Too bad. Vengeance demons can't grant their own wishes. Isn't that convenient. Made for a damn funny episode too, didn't it?
My point is, in the Buffyverse, Anya trying to work black magic on Xander is completely different than Xander grabbing a gun and blowing her brains out in a crime of passion. The ratio of magickal (and therefore, undoable) violence to physical violence (undoable) on this show has got to be at least 3-1. This is not realistic fiction. The nornmal standards of good/ evil, chaos/order, life/death/right/wrong are constantly being played with and stretched. A think you're interpreting things a little too literally.
Well, you wanted your demon back, didn't you? ;) I'm not trying to antagonize you, I'm just speaking my mind. Hopefully we can get a fun convo going. Or you could delete me. Whatever you want, sweet Board Daddy, it's your world. *kiss*
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You've brought this up before and I do n't agree -- UHC, 23:47:51 08/11/02 Sun [1]
I understand what you are saying but I disagree. Intent is still there. And whether it was mystical or not. to me she did this. Now yes you are right. The audience in no way saw it as I did. but to me this is what she did to Xander. To me she is an attempted murderer of her boyfriend. It was played off as funny as they have done before. But I thought it was anything but.
And I still hold that my initial point was lost by how I worded what I said.
Its possibly not that Xander needs to forgive her, and he really never knew all the vengence stuff she was trying to do. But Xander had some huge issues with her sleeping with Spike. And from the beginning of season spoilers, it seems he is over them. This has suprised me. It seems like they had him forget. Now I know you can argue all day long whether or not he should forgive and should get over it.
But I"m saying that the writers apparently did. And Xander is not known for letting a thing go easily.
My key worry was that if they have him let that go, they would have him be easier on Spike too. And that much screwing with Xander's character with no reason I wouldn't like. If they give a reason he gets past Spike's acts, then I can maybe understand.
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But you're forgetting that Xander can do no good! -- Rachel, 03:49:58 08/12/02 Mon [1]
Whatever he does is immediately jumped on, and a load of Xander bashage ensues! Whether it's not deserting Anya, it's him not knocking on the door! uuuuuuugh! And had it been Xander who tried to rape Buffy ... well, i think you can imagine the reaction of all Xander haters then! But if any other character does these things, which to me, are a bigger scale of badness, and have more harmful effects on people, then they are forgiven.
(OK, deep breath Rachel, before you get too mad at people!!! *Deep breath* OK.)
*sigh* and if Xander tries to correct his wrongs, he's attacked again. Why? for goodness sakes! I don't get it!
I very much agree with your Anya thing. She tried to kill him, do some really gross kinds of torturing him, and even tried to make it like he'd never existed at all. And she was doing this with all seriousness, and believed she could do it. And when she couldn't, did she give up? No. She tried to get his closest friends to wish it upon him. I see your point totally, and it is scary that she was able to get away with it without a blink of an eyelid.
And I thank you for this safety net that is your castle. At least people will listen to your Xander points, and not scrutinise him for the tiniest things.
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Ok Rachel, first let me say that Church prolly missed you horribly!! You Xander lover you;-) -- Phae, 09:09:46 08/12/02 Mon [1]
Second, I am NOT a Xander hater. Rather I see his good and his bad faults. I do not place him higher than any other character (nor lower). Xander has some atonements as well. Xander is not blameless. Likewise, Anya, Buffy, Spike. None of them are blameless. They spiraled down and out of control in S6. Hopefully S7 will have them picking themselves up, moving forward, stopping the petty feelings, showing more adult feelings.
If Xander cannot find it in his heart to forgive Anya her sleeping with Spike, then Xander needs to move on.
Likewise, if Anya can not forgive Xander for leaving her at the altar, then showing no signs of commitment after they spoke again, then she needs to move on, harboring no ill will.
Xander and Buffy need to re-connect, show support, begin to build the trust they lost when they were both scrambling through the trials and tribulations of S6.
Spike, newly souled, will need to show remorse ............... or not. But like I've said before, no more gray for him. I would like him truly redeemed, or truly evil. Just for kicks. Just to see JM do it either way. He's muddied the waters well enough, very successfully. Let's see him move in one direction or the other and stay there. Could be interesting. The great battle at the end could be between he and Xander.
As far as forgiving the other characters - no. I don't overlook what other characters have done either. I don't forgive Spike his SR actions. My "whys" will have to be answered. Also, he showed some remorse already, but will have to follow-up into S7 with this attitude if his actions are going to be forgiven in my mind. Buffy, she has a lot of loose ends to tie up.
One thing tho, it is hard to speculate on how a character is thinking or acting in S7 prior to seeing it. The spoilers only provide a sketch. Actual viewing fleshes it out. I know I am guilty of getting worked up before seeing a show. Then when I see it, it is nothing like what I've read about prior to viewing. Likewise, wildfeeds are not the same as viewing it.
Welcome back Rach!! *I saw Church weeping with joy upon your return!* :-) Keep up the good B/X fight!!
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Thankyou Phae! Wow, you got a lot to say! -- Rachel, 09:42:05 08/12/02 Mon [1]
And I wasn't refering to you when i mentioned Xander haters. You know I'd scream and yell at you personally, if i had a problem! hahahahhaaaaaaa!
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Sorry, yes I know that (and I hope you would too!) *smooch* -- Phae, 09:51:55 08/12/02 Mon [1]
Just standing up for my comments here in this thread is all. I just don't think I see things the same way as sweet, handsome, sexy Church does .... and he has the power to DELETE me!!! So, I try to clarify as I go along and reread things and have time to sleep on things, etc., etc., so I just added on after your response.
And I say it again, I just know the White Knight is grinning from ear to ear now that you, the Pink Knight - defender of Xander, fighter for B/X - have returned from your journeys!! :-)
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lol! Well, if i can just get my hands on that sexy white knight, I KNOW he'd grin from ear to ear! -- Rachel, 10:37:27 08/12/02 Mon [1]
My comments weren't made at you, my dear! Nooooo, i'd just read some things on "another" board, and was unleashing my anger into a little post. hehe!
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LOL!! :-D -- Phae, 10:53:17 08/12/02 Mon [1]
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