| Subject: Re: fundamentalism is scary |
Author:
Astrid
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Date Posted: 00:26:07 07/15/02 Mon
In reply to:
Raisinmom
's message, "Re: fundamentalism is scary" on 20:06:33 07/14/02 Sun
>What is, in my opinion, driving the rise in European
>anti-Semitism is increased Israeli/Palestinian tension
>(suicide bombings and Israeli military action).
Ah, but don't you view this as in large part a result of Sept. 11th? For one thing, I have seen Sharon play the terrorism card over and over in order to push the limits and still have the support of the Bush administration.
>In
>addition, everyone is facing harder economic times,
>and Jews are traditionally a scapegoat for such
>dissatisfaction. Indeed, one day I will write a paper
>on my theory that women and Jews often function as
>"canaries in the mine shaft" -- that is, a society in
>which the treatment of Jews and/or women takes a sharp
>downturn is certainly one headed for trouble (as in
>Afghanistan a few years back).
Scapegoating certainly is often a result of economic downturns. Interesting metaphor, btw. So would you say that Jews suffer mistreatment during recessions because they are so distinctive a group (I would make parallels between how Asians are scapegoated in my neck of the woods)? And by mistreatment of women, do you refer to the domestic sphere or the working sphere?
There are plenty of
>other factors too (the receding specter of the
>Holocaust, the need for the Saudi and Egyptian
>governments to divert attention from the problems in
>their own countries, etc.)
Do you believe the Saudi and Egyptian governments are influencing European feelings toward Jews?
>Astrid, no one disagrees that it's legitimate to be
>critical of the current Israeli government. I've
>agreed repeatedly on this.
You might, but John Malkovich wants to kill Robert Fisk. And yet I haven't read an anti-Semitic statement from him (Fisk), so I have to wonder why he'd be so reviled in such a prominent way if criticism of Israel is legitimate.
As for Sharon, can we at
>least be clear here? The "war crime" finding that I
>believe you refer to related to Sharon's actions many
>years ago and does *not* apply to Sharon's actions
>during the new intifada. (My apologies if I have
>misunderstood.) And kudos to Israel for
>self-criticism -- I haven't seen any similar
>soul-searching from Palestine about *its* war crimes
>in intentionally slaughtering innocent civilians at
>discos, pizza parlors and supermarkets.
No, I am in fact referring to Sabra and Chatila. But the Israeli people elected a war criminal (defined by the Israeli people) to lead them. He has been applauded for BEING aggressive with the enemy. It should be no surprise when left-wingers speak out loudy against his policies. Whether he were in Israel or in Canada he would attract a higher level of scrutiny from the left-leaning media.
>Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree here. I do
>*not* agree that the Palestinians are "hopelessly
>oppressed" in a way that justifies suicide bombings,
>which seems to be where you're going.
I don't think that the murder of innocent civilians is ever justified, whether it's a suicide bomber at a wedding or the Israeli army in Jenin. I think that the Palestinians have made a big mistake in hitching their cart to Arafat's horse for so long, and I think that raising your children to hate is a poor solution. But I also think that they are an oppressed people. There is no denying that an entire population of men, women and children are suffering for the political actions of some. The Palestinians no longer are even able to function in their own territories, let alone Israel.
So, given that we agree that suicide bombing is murderous and insane, would you at least agree that the Palestinians are oppressed??
>Okay, so we disagree. Sympathy for Palestinians does
>not an anti-Israeli make, but Fisk's piece went well
>beyond that, as noted in my original post. And I
>specifically said I did not see any evidence that he's
>an anti-Semite, so I don't see why you mention this
>again. Finally, I should note that I would have the
>same opinion of Fisk's piece even in the absence of
>growing European anti-Semitism.
I mention it again because your response sounded emotional ('surprise, surprise') and you stated that you didn't finish reading it. It seemed like you were dismissing it as hate literature as opposed to a reasoned, thoughtful opinion which might be different from your own.
Fisks arguments weren't even about Palestinians in this piece (I just concede that he does seem to pick sides in this conflict sometimes, and my sense is that he feels a duty to look out for the underdog in a conflict).
>No, the concern is that the criticism is wrong. Of
>course criticism of Israel should not be squelched for
>fear that it might fuel anti-Semitism.
I am trying to see if there was a link between your comments that Fisk was European and your raising the issue of a rise in European anti-Semitism.
>Well, it is a concern when this is the case, and many
>are beginning to question whether some of the more
>virulent anti-Israel propaganda, particularly in
>Europe, is actually anti-Semitism. (I again refer you
>to Ron Rosenbaum's piece.) Is it a "deep-seated
>fear"? I think not. Jews recognize that one may
>criticize and not hate; the vast majority of Jews
>don't run from every criticism of Israel screaming,
>"Anti-Semite!"(though I am aware that a small and
>unfortunately vocal minority may).
Just as I am sure
>you are sick of intimations of anti-Semitism when you
>criticize Israel, Jews get weary of intimations of
>alarmism when they defend Israel.
Actually, I don't often criticise Israel and it would probably be more un-PC in my neck of the woods to be pro-Israel (not because of any anti-Semitism but more because of a strong left-wing and perhaps also anti-American sentiment).
So you'll forgive me if you think I'm analysing this to death, but I am interested in your perspective simply because it took me a bit aback. There is a sense out there that there is a groundswell of anti-Semitic feeling that is gaining in legitimacy in the mainstream press, and I'm trying to assess to what degree this is actually occurring.
It was curious that today while I was paying extra attention to this (reading Ron Rosenbaum's piece for one thing), a couple of things happened. One is that a caller on a talk radio show suggested to the Jewish host that Jews were responsible for creating anti-Christian sentiment in society (!?) and a Jewish Canadian man in Toronto was murdered, allegedly by skinheads in a racially motivated crime.
It chills me to think that the Second Holocaust some are warning against could be even remotely possible.
Astrid
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