| Subject: Re: New poll (Nebula v Nebulon) |
Author:
Warspite
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Date Posted: 09:10:02 10/22/02 Tue
Author Host/IP: ipd54b192d.free.wxs.nl/213.75.25.45
In reply to:
The Divine Shadow
's message, "Re: New poll (Nebula v Nebulon)" on 03:23:16 10/22/02 Tue
>>>Darth Vader was savoring his hunting time, he rarely
>>>has the pleasure, especially where he gets fight a
>>>pilot that has Force potential.
>>
>>Hmmmm....doesn't really work though, because we saw
>>basically the same display on the X-Wings too. They
>>certainly were not 'savoring' the time, they were
>>fighting for their lives.
>
>ok. so they were, but think of this, at high STL
>speeds and at FTL speeds if the targeting computers
>fail then the pilot would be s.o.l. (and don't use
>Tuvok or Warf as examples of how that might not be
>true because they are particularly skilled at what
>they do and they represent only 2 of thousands)
>
I might agree with this if I knew what s.o.l meant! :)
>>As far as I know, the A-Wing certainly wasn't aiming
>>itself at the windows. It could have been dumb luck to
>>hit them rather than the armored hull, but then that
>>brings us back to the novel quote (the one about the
>>fighter taking out the forward batteries). If the
>>fighter hit the forward batteries (no suggestion of
>>windows here), and took them out, what should a 200GT
>>hit do to them?
>
>The hyperdrive could have gone critical, When Admiral
>Daala sent her ISDs against Mon Calimari the Mon Cals,
>having little in the way of a defense fleet at that
>time, could only send a damaged cruiser at the fleet,
>the Captain programed the unstable hyperdrive
>motivator (due to battle damage) to overload and
>explode, it worked, 1 ISD was destroyed, another
>damaged so badly that it barely made it to hyperspace.
> If and X-wing's hyperdrive motivator went critical
>(this rarely happens) then the explosion would be
>enough to damage a large protion of the ISD's bow
>(where the batteries were).
>
It might have, but there is nothing to state that it happened. All we know is that Green wing was hit, and was losing power, He then deliberately rammed the forward batteries. If he was losing power so badly that he couldn't keep flying, it doesn't seem right to me that his overload power would exceed 200GT. The implication in the book is that it was the ram that did the damage.
>>>The Asteroid that the ISD was a bout 1/8 the size of
>>>the Bridge tower and traveling very fast.
>>
>>Not that fast. We visually see heading towards the ISD
>>for a good second before impact. Given the camera
>>angle and the way it does not change much in size, the
>>speed cannot have been very high. It impact energy
>>would never approach anything like 200GT. To do so
>>would require it being much larger and/or faster
>
>Pretty fast for a rock with no engines or repulsors
>though.
Pretty slowly for many astronomical bodies really. Of course it all depends on your frame of reference, since the relative speed of the two is all that matters, not the actual speed of either. :)
I've done some checking, and found some analysis's of this scene. One is from Wong, and one is from Lord Edam. I should say that my physics is not up to questioning either of them, but they should give us an upper and lower estimate of the scene. Wong (on his site) suggests that the bridge tower asteroid was 70 meters and spherical. Edams says it was not spherical, it was shaped like a potato and measured (judging by the 31.5 meter bridge tower globes), not more than 60 meters in length, with an approximate width and depth of 42 meters.
Wong gives an estimate for the density of the asteroid (7000 kg/m3 density), and Edam says that is twice the density of any known asteroid. He used 3000kg/m3!
Wong estimates the speed to be 1000 meters per second. Edam says that photographic analysis shows the speed was approximately half of this. He says it takes 15 frames for the asteroid (after becoming fully visible at frame 35) to collide (at frame 50). Edam therefore suggests that with the size known (and using the same axis to offset the effect of the asteroid's spin), the asteroid was moving no faster than about 550 meters per second.
Wong estimates that the kinetic energy (using his figures) of the impact was around 150kt! Edam doesn't give a kt estimate, but obviously if he thinks the asteroid is smaller, slower and less dense, the final estiamte will be much lower. Therefore it seems that 150kt would be the high end estimate for the impact. 150kt is nothing, if as you say, the structure is designed to withstand GT range stresses.
>Besides, Imperial armor has high energy
>reflectivity, that does nothing to stop a several
>hundred meter wide/tall/deep hunk of nickle/iron,
>travelling at tens to hundreds of Km per second, from
>penetrating into a reletively low armor area, in all
>probibility spalling in the process sending its chunks
>into many vital structural support areas and maybe
>even blowing up one or both of the shield generators.
The problem here is that the quote from Slave one must refer to the kinetic energy of the bolt at launch. Therefore it is saying that the physical structure of the ship must be able to withstand GT level stresses. You would not then expect the ship to be heavily damaged, possibly destroyed, by a mere kt level impact. It would take something like 1333 atseroid impacts seen in TESB, to make the same energy as one turbolaser bolt, IF the turbolasers really do have 200GT. If you consider the power of a whole broadside, you can see that 150kt should have done nothing more than scratch the paint. :)
>The fact of the matter is that we don't know what kind
>of damage the ISD had tacken prior to the impact,
>other impacts could very easily have been
>significantly reduced on the other side by similar
>impacts, niether the books nor the movies confirm or
>deny these possibilities.
True, but visually the ISD appeared undamaged. The ship was communicating normally at the time. There were no holes, no leaking energy or visible fires. We have no evidence at all that it was damaged at all at that time. Also, at that time, the ships had not been inside the field for a very long period of time, so you would not expect the damage to have mounted up yet.
In fact, this whole scene argues against 200GT turbolasers. If the ISD really could fire turbolasers of that power, it could have destroyed any of the asteroids in the field easily (even the really big ones). None of them should have unduly threatened the ships, especially not a mere <70m one.
>
>>> besides,
>>>there aren't any guns on the bridge tower.
>>>And as for, the TLs ownly set trees on fire, that's
>>>because all most all Imperial weapons deal linear
>>>damage, not radial
>>>because Linear will peirce Imperial armor (like an
>>>asteroid)
>>>While radial will not have sufficient power to do
>much
>>>damage to the armor.
>>
>>You mean they always punch through, rather than
>>exploding?
>
>Not always, the armor can take many hits before it is
>penetrated (due to it's high energy reflectivity,
>specific heat, and density).
>
>>I'm not sure that is correct. If that were
>>the case, we would expect to see holes in ships from
>>one side to the other rather than surface explosions.
>
>Inner areas of Imperial ships are also heavily
>armored. And in "Destiny's Way" (latest installment
>into the New Jedi Order series) we see Turbolaser
>shots creating veritble mushroom clouds of superheated
>yoric coral (a naturally grown armor that has
>proporties that rival Imperial/Republic dura-steel,
>this suggests great impact strength (like hundreds of
>megatons at the least).
And yet we saw the ISD heavily damaged/destroyed by at most 150kt, and we have seen multiple occasions of mere fighters penetrating the hulls. We know that the ISD captain was afraid of being rammed by the MF. Even in the case of the DS, we see a crashing fighter cause a huge explosion, though to be fair, we don't know what actual damage was caused. In TESB a relatively low speed collison between two ISDs caused enough damage to leave them adrift (ref TESB novel). In none of these examples do the energy levels reach GT amounts.
>
>>That is not what appears to happen in RotJ. You could
>>argue that after traveling a certain distance through
>>its target the turbolaser detonates, but then I take
>>you back to darksabre. A 200GT explosion detonating
>>100ft underground might be even more devestating than
>>a surface burst.
>
>Piont defense lasers use "flack burst" lasers, TLs
>rarely show this ability. If a TL shot travels far
>into the ground then it eventually fissles out runs
>out of the sublimating heat that allows such great
>penetration, it doesn't eventually explode.
>
Okay, fair enough, I didn't realise it was just the PD lasers that flakbursted. However, I still question your explanation of TLs. Have we ever seen this occur against large objects (i.e not fighters). AFAIK, turbolasers always seem to explode on impact.
>>It would cause earthtremors over
>>tremendous distances. Also, we have seen that
>>turbolasers can 'flak burst', and that certainly is a
>>radial explosion. You could argue that there are
>>different settings, but in that case, why were the
>>flak bursts not used at Yavin? A 200GT airburst would
>>kill everything for hundreds of miles. Whichever way
>>you look at it, the 200GT per shot fired at Yavin's
>>moon would have to go somewhere. Energy doesn't just
>>disappear, and 200GT (per shot!) is not a small
>amount.
>
>The Death Star was out of range for a Base Delta Zero,
>and besides, TL shots don't burst PDLs do. That's why
>the X-wings were doing so well against the DS, the
>guns shooting at the fighters were desined to take out
>Capital ships, not fighters, the recharge rates and
>rotational servos/berrings weren't optimized for AF
>use.
No, you misunderstand. I wasn't refering to the DS, but to the SSD (and previously ISDs and later Victory class ships) attacking Yavin's moon in Darksabre. With all the turbolasers that hit the moon, it should have been toast if they were anywhere close to 200GT each. We 'see' the SSD alone fire at least four full salvos at full strength.
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