| Subject: Re: Revised Dominion vs Empire |
Author:
Warspite.
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Date Posted: 15:00:27 09/06/02 Fri
Author Host/IP: ipd54b1f8e.free.wxs.nl/213.75.31.142
In reply to:
Wilde Karrde
's message, "Re: Revised Dominion vs Empire" on 09:31:31 09/04/02 Wed
>>>>>alright
>>>>>I did make a small mistake, make it 2 SSDs and 100
>>>>They'ed still spank'em! BDZ all the way. For ya'll
>>who
>>>>don't know what what BDZ (Base Delta Zero) is, its
>>the
>>>>code used by Star Destroyer captains to begin a
>>>>orbital bombardment with Turbolasers.
>>>
>>
>>True, but we don't have a definitive time frame for
>>it. Would the Imperial fleet survive long enough to
>>complete it?
>
>
>In the novel "Visions of the Future" the planet
>Bothawui was targeted to be BDZed by only three Star
>Destroyers. The goal of their mission was to let the
>warring fleets in orbit destroy eachother, wipe out
>any of the warring ships that remained, and then
>destroy Bothawui leaving no surviors from the warring
>fleets or the planet. I also must point out that one
>of the most imporant mission goals of the Star
>Destroyers was to leave no survivors because they
>wanted to blame the BDZ on the warring fleets to fan
>the flames of civil war in the New Republic. This
>proves that a BDZ last for only a few hours at the
>most because if it took longer someone from the planet
>or warring fleets would send a message for help and
>also the longer the BDZ takes the higher the risk the
>SDs have of being stumbled upon by ships heading for
>Bothawui which would ruin the SD's mission goal of
>framing the BDZ on the warring fleets.
>
Firstly the attack never actually took place, so we cannot 'see' for sure what the results would have been.
Secondly, this does not give us a definitive time. Yes it does let us have a 'time frame' (we know it can't be more than a day or so), but no definitive times.
Thirdly, I have a problem with the whole idea of three SD being able to destroy an entire planet's surface, without someone being able to lift off and escape. In TESB, we saw that a SSD escorted by at least FIVE SDs couldn't stop ships and fighters leaving the planet. Hoth was just a small outpost on an otherwise uninhabited planet. It should be much easier to quarentine a small outpost than a whole advanced planet. We see in the latest SW books that the Vong cannot reliably stop ships going to and leaving Coruscant. Therefore I find the whole plan at Bothawui suspect from the start. Since the plan was not carried out, we cannot say for certain that it would have succeeded.
>Also this example proves that three SDs are more then
>enough to preform a BDZ operation. 100 SDs and 2 SSDs
>is more then enough to BDZ the Dominion world (in fact
>it's overkill) in no time .
I don't doubt that three SD can perform a BDZ. I never said they couldn't. Its the time frame I'm questioning.
>AS for the Dominion fleet
>none of their ships have ever shown the ability to
>stop weaponry that's even close to the gigaton range,
>meaning all the Imperials have to do is hit any of the
>Dominion ships once and the Dominion ship is fucked.
Of course on screen, none of the Imperial weapons come close to the gigaton range either. They don't generally in the books. I assume you are basing this on ICS?
>The Dominion have also never shown weaponry powerful
>enough overwhelm the sheilds of a SD not to mention a
>SSD.
In TESB, an asteroid was enough to decapitate an ISD, even though the impact wasn't out of the kt range. In this scenario, you have 8000 ships, some of them are stated to be twice the size of a Galaxy class (say 1.3km long), all prepared to ram if necessary.
>damage it can simply preform a hyperspace jump far
>away enough to be out of the pathetic range of warp,
>repair the ship and return to battle.
Assuming the hyperspace drive is not damaged. Assuming that they have the co-ords pre-programed, assuming that hours later after their repairs are performed, that there is still a fleet left to return to.
>>>
>>>Just two things I'd like to mention. First off a BDZ
>>>is more then just an orbital bombardment It's the
>>>complete destruction of the upper crust of a planet
>to
>>>the point where it's turned completly to slag.
>>
>>Maybe! :) There are multiple definitions of what
>>constitutes a BDZ. Melting the entire upper crust is
>>one of the higher end estimates. Others just require
>>the destruction of the planets infrastructure and
>>higher lifeforms. Others require extermination of all
>>life. It has never been definintively shown what the
>>defintion of BDZ is (Base Delta Zero aside!).
>
>
>Bullshit.
>----------------------------------
> Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections
>Pg. 22 :
>Armies entrenched in deep underground may be subject
>to a last resort "Base Delta Zero" fleet bombardment.
>Such operations reduce the upper crust of a planet to
>molten slag - a spectacle unseen in the Republic until
>the Clone Wars
>----------------------------------
>Face it your just another rabid trekkie who will do
>absolutely anything to disprove what a BDZ will do
>bcause it proves the extreme power that Imperial ships
>possess and that they would fuck over any Star Trek
>ship they are pitted against.
Okay, once again, I'm going to caution you about treating other debaters with respect. You done it to other debaters and nowe to me. This is your last warning. Do it to me or other debaters, and I'll block you and complain to your ISP.
As for BDZ, it is described as "the systematic complete destruction of all assets of production, including factories, arable land, mines, fisheries, and all sentient beings and droids."
This operation has also been referred to as reducing "a civilized world to slag", but also as reducing "a planet's surface to smoking debris in a matter of hours". Thjose two statements are incompatible.
So yes there are multiple definitions of it. If you want to choose the 'slag' definition, that is fine, but it doesn't change the fact that there are other definitions out there.
In the example of BDZ performed on Dankayo, the rebel base was reduced to slag, but a "deep planet shelter" survived.
In DarkSaber, an Imperial fleet bombarded Yavin's moon for some time, without coming close to the 'slag' requirements for a BDZ. In fact, all their turbolasers managed, was to burn off some of the jungle. In that attack there were SEVENTEEN Imperial Star Destroyers. Later, the attack continued with a number of Victory class star destroyers AND one Super Star Destroyer. At no time was the surface turned to slag, or the moon seriously (i.e long term)damaged.
>>
>>>Second thing I'd like to mention is about the
>Dominion
>>>fleet count. They include fighters in that count the
>>>same goes for the feds, klingons etc.
>>
>>Possibly, but Trek "fighters" are magnitudes above
>>Wars fighters in size and capabilities. Most Imperial
>>fighters don't have shields torpedoes or hyperdrives.
>>Most Trek "fighters" have warp, torpedoes and shields.
>>Unshielded Wars fighters (ie standard TIEs) are little
>>little more than cannon fodder in this battle.
>
>Again your spouting nothing more then trekkie
>bullshit. Tie's are thousands of times more
>maneuverable then Star trek fighters. Also no Star
>Trek ship has ever shown the capability to hit small
>fast agile targets that are less then 10 meters in
>width, lenghth, and height.
Voy:Dragons Teeth. Even on manual targeting, Voyager was hitting them. As for fast, what is that? TIE fighters have never shown high speeds or acceleration.
>So what if trek fighters
>possess torpedoes, warp, or sheilds. Torpedoes would
>only be good to wipe out a handful of fighters at the
>most which, compared to the torpedoes of a tie bomber
>are nothing seeing as how a tie bombers missles and
>torpedoes are in the high megaton to mid gigaton range
>and would destroy fighters and cap ships alike. Even
>if warp is used to jump out of the fighters range the
>SD's will simply blast the trek fighters away with the
>superior firepower, range, and speed of turbolasers.
>As for shields they're not an equation because the
>superior firepower of imperial fighters and bombers
>will cut through them like a hot knife through butter.
>last but not least even if the Imperial Fighters were
>nothing more then cannon fodder a single Star
>Destroyer carries a mix of 72 fighters, interceptors,
>and bombers. Seeing as how there are 100 Star
>Destroyer that's already 7200 fighters, interceptors,
>and bombers this number dosen't even include the
>fighters from the 2 SSDs which are both capable of
>carrying sveral hundred fighters each.
None of which have shields. We saw in ANH that even a very low speed impact was enough to critically damage a TIE fighter. TIEs would did in droves in proximity photon detonations, and would never get close enough to fire their weapons. The captial ships are the issue here, the fighters mean little.
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