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Subject: Neutral Site Author: Jim [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 07:03:29 03/07/05 Mon This year is a slam dunk case for why the Conf. Tournament shouldnt be at a one schools gym or another. (for my team wouldnt have mattered) The First round should be at the higher teams home and then the last two rounds should be at a neutral site (the ovious place being at a UCO again or Lloyd Noble, the real neutral site would be somewhere in Dallas I guess) [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> Subject: Oh, I dunno Author: David [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:14:40 03/07/05 Mon ...in a perfect world, the higher ranked team would play at home. That way, the regular season means something. And that was possible when the SAC was an Oklahoma schools conference. Now, with teams in three states, that's too much travel in too short of a time. OBU hasn't won it yet. OC hosted it in the past in some years when they had decent teams, and they didn't win it. As an Okie, I'd much rather make three trips to Shawnee in a week than one trip to Siloam Springs or Lubbock. Lubbock's a lot like Abilene. I spent a decade in Abilene one year in graduate school. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Best method Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:14:09 03/07/05 Mon The SAC should go back to the way District 9 did it in its final years. The first round was on home courts of the higher seed. That would have a dramatic impact on a tournament like this year's -- you really think OBU would have been able to win at Siloam Springs? Make the regular season count for something. Then have the semifinals and final at a neutral gym. There are plenty of gyms in the OKC area to do this. Use one of the gyms of a SAC team that's not in the semis -- SNU this year would have been perfect. Or rent UCO's gym or one of the larger high school gyms. Or if you want to splurge, try the Myriad or Ford Center. It's simply not fair for a team playing its biggest game of the season to have to play on the road against a lower-seeded opponent. USAO got bit at LCU a few years ago. OC got bit at OCU in 2003, and OCU could get bit at OBU this year. That's not right. Such important games should be either on a neutral court or on the home court of the higher seed -- period. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Neutral Site Author: Jim [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:47:48 03/07/05 Mon So i guess you agree with me completely [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Neutral Site Author: Ray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:15:24 03/07/05 Mon Yes, it's totally unfair. I mean, now that OBU has benefited from it. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Bison Bias again rears its head Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 05:34:44 03/08/05 Tue I've said all along it's not right to have a league school host the entire conference tournament. You just haven't paid attention. That OBU now has benefitted from it just adds more ammo to the argument. You've now joined the ranks of LCU and OCU who rode an unfair advantage all the way to the national tournament. Hey, none of those teams can be blamed for taking advantage of the situation. But that still doesn't make the situation fair. Ray is saying that it's fair for a lower-seeded team to host a higher-seeded team in the biggest games of the season. That must mean Ray thinks the regular season doesn't mean much. At the very least, there should be neutral courts for the semis and final. But there's one reason the conference does it the way it does: so that conference officials won't have to work as much. It's more work to wait until after the first round to determine where the semis and final should be. It's more work, in other words, to be fair during the postseason to the teams who earned the advantages during the regular season. On a neutral court, OBU would have lost to John Brown and Lubbock Christian. LCU wouldn't have won the tournament in 2000 if it hadn't of been in Lubbock. No way OCU wins in '03 unless it's playing at the Lemons Center. Either have the higher seeds host every game, or have a neutral court for the semis and final. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Bison Bias again rears its head Author: The Original [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:46:59 03/08/05 Tue You're right it does as "parody" because it is an absolute joke. Check the dictionary. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: so, if thats' true... Author: Dad [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:39:12 03/08/05 Tue ...that obu has the best talent,then tolin probably did not do a great job during the regular season... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: so, if thats' true... Author: Ray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:50:12 03/08/05 Tue Dad, If the Bison are peaking in March, is that a bad thing? It might be better than heading into KC with two losses in the last three games. Who can say? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: oh, i agree with the peaking thing... Author: Dad [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:42:42 03/08/05 Tue ...but in the recent past obu has done both...but not this season...so was it a chemistry thing, a longer process than usual to find the key guys, or just bad karma? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: oh, i agree with the peaking thing... Author: SOJ [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:04:06 03/08/05 Tue I think it was a chemistry thing compounded by the fact the their leading scorer and only inside scorer was hurt for about 3 weeks during the middle of the conference season. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: SOJ, I need your educated opinion Author: SOD [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:24:51 03/08/05 Tue It has already been proven on this board that OBU winning the tourney was a fluke and that OC didn't play their best player, Brady Paige, in the last game. So OBU has won their last 4, but they were given to them. That being said, do they have a shot at making a serious run in KC or do I need to make it to the first game to get to see them play. They are probably going to draw a top 5 team. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: SOJ, I need your educated opinion Author: ZH [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:33:01 03/08/05 Tue Having watched OBU completly dismantle OC in the last regular season game and then hearing about their run through the tourney I will chime in and say they have a great shot at going far(and this is coming from an eagle fan). They have very good guards(which are playing unbelievable right now) and enough size to bang with anyone. They will go as far as Leanord Mosely can take them, and that is pretty far when leanord is feeling right. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: SOJ, I need your educated opinion Author: SOJ [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:54:55 03/08/05 Tue Well, they have talent and depth. There's no question about that. Although there is a big drop off from the starters to the second team. Guys like Grace and Jones can provide solid minutes, but they're not a real threat when they're out there. The same is true of all their post players but Benson. When they struggled it was for two reasons. 1. They didn't have an inside scorer because Benson was hurt. 2. They played horrible team defense. Benson's return fixed the first problem, and evidently they've started to figure out the second problem. Hawley is right. It's all about Leonard. He's the only really unstoppable perimiter player they have. If he gets going he's likely to put up 20 in a half. It's not like a few years ago when either AHawk or David was a threat to go for 25 to 30. I'd also say it depends a lot on Hart. He needs to shoot over 40% and keep his turnovers around 2 or 3. In short, I wouldn't be surprised to see these guys get beat in the first round, and I wouldn't be all that surprised to see them win 2 or 3 games either. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: SOJ, I need your educated opinion Author: ABeamofPureEnergy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:54:43 03/09/05 Wed I pretty much agree. OBU is capable beating anyone in the field. But they could be beat by anyone, especially themselves. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Boo!!!! Author: OBUHeadPhoneGuy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:31:04 03/08/05 Tue Lighten up, chief. OBU has the most talent in the league. It didn't matter where they played this tournment. You need to congratulate the Bison and then start your wait for next year. OBU!!! OBU!!! OBU!!! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Neutral Site Author: Ol' School [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 05:52:02 03/08/05 Tue There is no such thing as a purely neutral site...even if you have the tourney at OU or the Myriad, it is still an "unfair" advantage to the Texas teams. There is no doubt that the host team is going to benefit from having the tourney at home. And it's easy to cry "unfair" when your team loses (believe me, I know, we lost the year LCU won it at home) but the fact remains that we could have won and so could have the other teams this year...I think having the tourney at home sites adds parody to the SAC drama, as long as each school gets to host it at sometime. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Neutral Site Author: SOJ [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:27:02 03/08/05 Tue I'm all for nuetral sites. Usually it hasn't mattered all that much since we had a tourney bid locked up before the SAC tournament, but if you're fighting for your tournament life, I definitely would not want to be heading to Lubbock or John Brown. We got lucky that we were pegged as the hosts for this year. OCU wasn't as big of a deal because they have no home court advantage to speak of. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Neutral Site Author: Ray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:19:24 03/08/05 Tue Dear Murray, The atmosphere last night was incredible. More OBU students than I've ever seen in the last few years. The OCU band made it over. It was loud. It was a great atmosphere. Why? Because it was at OBU? Yeah. Because of that. And because we had all year to plan for the tournament. We had all year to make sure we raised sponsors. All year to prepare a great program, lineup halftime events and make the SAC Tournament the show it is supposed to be. Now I'm sure in your perfect world that the University of Central Oklahoma would have done the same. Yes, I'm quite certain they have nothing else to do but prepare for the coming SAC Tournament. We don't do it like the Ohio Valley Conference. We didn't pick some gym that just wants our cash. So take your freakin' self-righteous claptrap and sell it on some other corner. Murray, nobody paid any attention to you because nobody cares any more. You aren't important enough for us to remember what you said a year ago, much less a half a decade ago. So, please, let us use the soapbox. We gotta hang another banner. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Neutral Site Author: SOJ [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:40:52 03/08/05 Tue Good points I hadn't thought of Ray. From a player's standpoint, I would have liked to not have to have spent a week in Lubbock for the tourney, but the bottom line is that when we entered a season, we all knew what the rules were; we all knew how to get a tourney bid; and if you couldn't win the SAC tourney that meant you should take care of business during the regular season. I wish I could have been there to see it last night. I knew I should have cut class. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Oh. Wow. Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:17:39 03/08/05 Tue Makes you wonder how we ever managed to put on a tournament back in the "old" days. I bet we never had any atmosphere for any of the games we had at neutral sites. I bet we never had almost 5,000 fans show up for any of those games. I bet it was thoroughly disorganized and just not any fun at all for players, coaches and spectators. And I guess the NCAA was completely wrong-headed when they decided a few years back not to let men's teams play NCAA tournament games on their home courts. Who said anything about having to have it at UCO? Why not have the semis and finals at SNU (men) and OBU (women) to ensure neutral courts? Oh, I forgot. It's all about the money now. (Gotta have that title sponsor, baby.) We've got to overprepare for something that we used to put together quite well in just a few days. You're such a hypocrite, Ray, because you'd be the one of the first ones screaming about unfairness if OBU had been the team getting the shaft. (I seem to remember a lot of whining going on when the tournament was in Lubbock.) It just goes to show that at OBU, it's all about winning. It's not about fairness for anybody else. Just as long as the Bison win, baby. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Oh. Wow. Author: SOJ [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:42:15 03/08/05 Tue Murray makes me laugh. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Oh. Wow. Author: Bison=Satan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:55:05 03/08/05 Tue Murray is right, and all you people that disagree just hate basketball and goodness. All OBU cares about is winning and worshipping the devil. I hear they paid off the SAC so they could get the tournament because they knew they were going to be down this season and would need to win it. I bet OBU pays off the officials in OC's tourney game too so Hays will get another first round loss. Doug Tolin hates babies and kittens. OBU students worship a golden bison that they spatter with blood twice a year. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Oh. Wow. Author: SOD [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:13:24 03/08/05 Tue Murr, The only whining coming from OBU when the tourney was in Lubbock was that we had to waste our time going to Lubbock because we already clinched KC. No one wants to drive 8 hours to play a couple of meaningless games, drink that nasty water and play in an empty gym. Yeah, OBU probably wouldn't have made it if they didn't host the SAC, but everyone cheered LCU on when they did the same thing. They were a 'cinderella' team. You just wanted to be able to say OBU failed on returning to KC. Why is everything so negative with you Murr? Maybe because there is a legit chance that after this horrible year Obaptist has had they might still go farther in KC than Dan the Man. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: You all are off the reservation Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:24:53 03/08/05 Tue I don't have a problem with OBU making the tournament. It says a lot that in a year in which OBU fans say the league is down, that five teams probably are going to go to KC. I'd love to see all five make the quarters. You see, I'm a true SAC fan, not just a fan of my alma mater. Also, for the record, I think Doug Tolin is a great coach. Never have thought anything less. Some of you might recall I picked him as the All-City coach of the year when he was at Norman. My argument, as always, is based on principle. Sixth seeds shouldn't host higher seeds in conference tournament games. Period. LCU shouldn't have, OCU shouldn't have, OBU shouldn't have. It basically renders the regular season meaningless. If that's what you want, fine, keep it the way it is. But if you believe in fairness, then you should agree with me. (Psst. If you do agree, it doesn't mean OBU doesn't get to go to KC.) [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: You all are off the reservation Author: SAC Fan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:38:23 03/08/05 Tue "It just goes to show that at OBU, it's all about winning. It's not about fairness for anybody else. Just as long as the Bison win, baby." "I don't have a problem with OBU..." [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Congrats Murr Author: SOD [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:41:35 03/08/05 Tue That is the first logically written, nonthreatening and positive post I have seen on this board from you in some time. I do have a couple thoughts for you to consider, if you have time to humor a far less intelligent visitor to this board. I don't care what you ever wrote about DT. I don't use your personal career as a gage for what you say on this board. You could be the food critic at the Edmond Sun for all I care. Your posts consistently show a disgust for the green and gold. That is great, but just come clean. I am not nearly as big an OBU fan as you like to assume, though I have followed them since I could walk. I am happy to see them in the tournament, but you will never catch me predicting a championship for them. You also will never see me post about how great they are. (I may say they are better than your team, but that is just because I get enjoyment out of cheering against you) The only personal bias from my Obaptist days you'll see from me is that I think we should have won a title, so we could shut John Parrish up about the gods of '66. I agree with you that the final two rounds should be played on a neutral court. Money is an issue though and I think it will be sometime before the SAC can afford to do that. It's not the District 9 with 1 bid anymore. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: You all are off the reservation Author: ABeamofPureEnergy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:50:23 03/08/05 Tue Regular season meaningless? That is absurd! The regular season champion gets an automatic bid. Furthermore, if the conference tournament is not at your home floor, it is more important to put yourself in a position to get in before the tournament. Is it fair? No. But was it fair when OU had to play Syracuse in New York in the regional finals in 2003? What about when UCLA has to play Tulsa in Oklahoma City in the first round of the NCAA tournament in 1994? These things happen. Take care of business in the regular season when everything is fair and you still go to the national tournament. If you put yourself in the position where you have to win the conference tournament, you have no one to blame but yourself. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: You all are off the reservation Author: Ray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:48:51 03/08/05 Tue What does it mean, this 'off the reservation' thing? Sounds slimey to me. But to the point. The regular season is what it is. We award a runner-up in the tournament because we hope that the No. 2 and 3 teams have already locked up a place in KC or Jackson because of how they did in the regular season. Murples, we're running this show and we've gotten more teams in there than anyone else since we've gone to our format. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Well, whoop de do! Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:29:49 03/08/05 Tue A few clarifications and comments here: SOD: I do not have a "disgust for the green and gold." What I do have is a dislike of the usually pompous attitude displayed by most of the OBU-affiliated posters on this board. It seems like most of them believe the SAC basketball world begins and ends with OBU. It doesn't. OBU has been successful in recent years. Great. So has OCU, USAO, SNU, even OC and LCU. All of those teams also have had crummy years in the past -- even OBU. Also, as far as the money issue, it wouldn't cost any more for one of the league schools that doesn't have a dog in the semifinal hunt (this year, SNU for example) to host the semis and final. There's no need to rent a facility unless you absolutely want to. To this strange "Pure Energy" person: Yes, the regular season is meaningless for the third-seeded team that has to play on the home court of the sixth-seeded team. The regular season should have meaning for everyone, not just the champion. To OC '91: Can't say I'm wild about your theory about getting rid of conference tournaments, but I can understand where you're coming from. I've always thought conference tournaments somewhat reduce the importance of the regular season. But they can also be great theatre, given the right circumstances, which do not involve lower seeds hosting higher seeds with something important like a national-tournament berth on the line. To Ray: The ends don't justify the means as far as getting teams into the tournament. If they earn it during the regular season, great. But don't give any team that didn't earn it a special advantage by hosting every conference tournament game. Bottom line, if the SAC used a truly fair and neutral system, you'd be able to spend a lot more time these days following baseball and softball, because your basketball team likely wouldn't have gotten past the first round at John Brown. The same could be said for LCU in '00 and OCU in '03. It sounds like more people agree with me in theory. Let's hope the SAC comes to its senses and gets it right in future years. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Well, whoop de do! Author: Ray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:13:53 03/08/05 Tue Appleseed, The SAC has it right. That's the thing about you. If it's not how you'd do it, it is wrong. And since you didn't go to OBU, OBU supporters are the pompous ones. You're a little too full of yourself Murray. Do you give yourself cramps? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Ray, you're close to the edge again Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:02:00 03/09/05 Wed No, the SAC is not doing it right. It sounds like the majority of people agree with me -- neutral courts for the most important games of the season, or give the advantage to the higher-seeded team. I can't figure out why that's so hard for you to understand. And my dislike of pompous fans extends to more than just OBU. I got on OCU fans back in the day when they were a bit too big for their britches. OC fans, too. If you pay attention, I tell Nathan to pipe down quite a bit. I'm equal opportunity. Everyone should be more like SNU fans. Now, SNU's women are far and away the most successful program in SAC history -- 12 straight Final Fours, 7 national titles -- and yet you never see SNU fans overzealously boasting about how they're going to continually dominate. They just win with class and don't brag about it. That's an example we all could heed. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: where ARE the snu fans here? Author: Dad [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:16:36 03/09/05 Wed ...or do they only care about mens' hoops? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: where ARE the snu fans here? Author: SOJ [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:02:06 03/09/05 Wed Monte shows up now and again. I don't know about any others. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Well, whoop de do! Author: ABeamofPureEnergy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:34:21 03/09/05 Wed The regular season is what got John Brown into the national tournament. Their season isn’t over. In fact, the top four finishers of the regular season made it to the tournament. Furthermore, I would argue that the top 4 regular season finishers will go to the national tournament just about every year. If the ultimate goal of every team was solely to win the conference tournament, it would be different. But its not. The goal is to win the national championship. And to do that, the goal of the regular season is to make the national tournament. To call the regular season meaningless is just plain wrong. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: You all are off the reservation Author: Wes [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:35:15 03/09/05 Wed One reason you don't hear overzealous boasting from SNU fans is because they may have lost interest. I'm sure the environment is better for an OCU-SNU women's game, but I haven't exactly seen SNU fans following the women's team in droves. When OC went to the Sawyer Center this year, there were maybe 100-200 SNU fans at the women's game - to watch the 2-time defending national champs! Unbelievable. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Neutral Site Author: OC'91 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:48:15 03/08/05 Tue I fail to see what is so hard to understand here. Post season conference tournaments are stupid at the highest NCAA level. Nearly every hard-core fan will admit that in moments of clarity. Besides the occasional Cinderella run by a regular season also-ran...they serve very little purpose. Tournaments at the NAIA level, where budgets are already strained, are even more ludicrous. If it were up to me - ax the whole thing! Sending teams to Arkansas and Texas is just as bad as making those same teams come to central Oklahoma. I doubt seriously anyone makes any kind of serious cash off the tourney. If you have to have the tourney, how simple could it be to find a neutral site to host the semi's and final game? Going to State Fair Arena for the finals was a big deal when I was in college. Huge crowd, lots of attention and media coverage. I guess Murray might have brought some scorn on himself baiting OBU fans, but his point is generally correct. It isn't about supporting it while on "our" campus. It's just dumb to play every round of a post-season tournament on one SAC schools floor. That thought is not out of envy, but out of common sense. Too expensive. Too limiting. Too unbalanced. Kill it, or play it somewhere neutral. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: SOUR GRAPES!!! Author: BisonHeadPhoneGuy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:21:23 03/08/05 Tue Cry me a river. OBU spanked OCU in OKC, so it didn't matter where they played. They own them. End of story. See you in Kansas City. Next. OBU!!!! OBU!!!! OBU!!!! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]