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Date Posted: 22:48:07 06/09/03 Mon
Author: neonate
Subject: response to 'determinism and the matrix' and 'sidenotes'
In reply to: Grizlas 's message, "Determinism and the Matrix" on 11:09:06 06/09/03 Mon

I enjoyed reading your posts. My response here is not so much to argue a point as it is to simply present ideas.

1) Determinism and the matrix
>Time is a tricky thing to define. Time simply means
>change, since without any change at all, the word
>"time" would have no meaning.

Yeah, it sure is tricky! Your point has left me wondering. Would the universe be 'frozen' solid if there were no changes at all? If so, meaning no change at all, then of course there would be no meaning to the word 'time' because there wouldn't be anything alive to assign meaning to it. So long as there IS change we can try to describe it, among many ways, in terms of numbers and events. WE are what gives the word 'time' its meaning. How about this: Without time there is no change?

>The Matrix as an isolated system with no humans
>connected, might be deterministic, all depending on
>what an AI is, and wether or not it has
>non-deterministic free will. If humans are connected,
>then the Matrix can only be deterministic if humans
>lack non-deterministic free will.

Yes, what are the characteristics of this AI? Much depends on that answer.
I'm suggesting (in my post on past/future) that the humans who have not been freed from the matrix and thus still connected are not living--merely doing what they are 'told' to do...'deterministic free will.' AI may think that they nearly completely understand the human mind and have thus been able to establish an alternate reality--a complex deterministic system of cause and effect with some success.
>
>If there exists non-deterministic free will inside the
>matrix, then no choice made by an entity possessing it
>can be calculated 100% and thus the prediction stops
>until that choice is made. Therefore there exists time
>in a matrix populated with non-deterministic agents.
>Of course this assumes that the humans connected to
>the matrix are still humans, and that it is still
>their brain doing the deciding.

I should have been more clear. As you suggest, those have been freed from the matrix can plug back in and exercise a different type of free will--'non-deterministic' as you call it. Yet, their actions still seem to be predicted and known inside the matrix (Trinity/Neo love, etc.). How can this be? There seems to be a relationship between determinism, free will, and predictability.

>However, if there doesnt exist non-deterministic free
>will in humans nor AI, then there is still time in the
>matrix. As i'm sure you've learnt in physics class,
>Einstein teaches us that time is relative, meaning
>that within the matrix, humans and AI will still
>experience events, even if they are predetermined. You
>can slow it down, or even stop it, but you cannot
>reverse it, or fast forward it as long as humans are
>connected, since the matrix has to wait for the brain
>to compute it's response even if the matrix knows
>precisely what that response will be, otherwise the
>state of the brain wouldnt be consistent with the
>illusion presented to it.

Again, you make an interesting point. For those who are stilled plugged in (not free)time certainly exists in their minds, but it's only an illusion. Those who enter the matrix with non-deterministic free will do not necessarily understand the cause and effect relationship inherent in programs (as we understand programs today)and the matrix. Thus, to some extent they too may be under the illusion of time.

>he still thinks
>like a 10 year old even if he sees his body is 40
>years old.
>In other words, young people would start dying by the
>millions for no apparant reason, and old people would
>just not die. This would seem very unreal to anyone
>connected, and would probably cause the matrix to
>crash. (i cut stuff out)

I agree with your point that the body of the human (not free and plugged in) might not necessarily live longer or die quicker because the age of the mind has changed. However, it is fair to say in general that if the mind thinks the body is younger than it actually is then it will live longer. If the mind thinks the body is older than it actually is, then it will die quicker. As you point out though, it depends on what age the the mind and body start out at and where they end up.

2) Sidenotes
It is possible that the agents lied to Cypher.

Interesting point about the the matrix world being modeled after the peak of civilization. Your question is 'what happens when the matrix passes this optimal era?' Your suggestion is that the matrix gets reloaded or rebooted as it is defined by AI. I've wondered about that. I was thinking 'wouldn't the humans invent AI again inside the matrix?' Then someone reminded me that it's already determined by the machines what will happen. Maybe, as i've suggested before, small inaccuracies in the understanding of the human mind and the way that programs interact with them in the long run will be catastrophic to the matrix system. So, like you suggest, the Architect must reload or reboot the system. The order and stability of the matrix system becomes threatened, but remains safe though complex systems of control.

I'd like to see you post more often

thanks
neonate

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