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Subject: Good vs. Evil


Author:
Mark7
[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
Date Posted: 18:47:54 04/06/02 Sat
 Recent events in Gaza and the occupied territories, have made me think about the way the US media has been reporting on the confilct in the middle east.

The terminology used is that suitable for a 9 year old, or at the IQ level of George W. Bush.

Cathy phrases, "Good vs. Evil", "War on terror", and the inevitable "you are either with us or against us (we'll kill you)".

Have we Americans just gone nuts? Or we have been idiots all along?

There is no good in the middle east. Ariel Sharon is a war criminal backed by the military power of the US and bent on ethinc cleansing. His place is in the same prison cell with Milosevich, and for the same crimes.

Between Ariel Sharon and Arafat there cannot be peace. I was hoping that at least Arafat would be killed, but the best thing that would happen would be for both Arafat and Sharon to die (my wish would be for them to die in horrible slow pain).

The criminal barbarian (Sharon) and the spinless criminal (Arafat) can only lead to more killing and war.

Why do we support Israel? Why do we pay for the guns and the ammunition that kills Palestinian children?

I believe this conflict would be resolved ASAP if the US withdrew it's military and financial support for Israel.

We are supporting a country lead by a mad murderer of women and children (Sharon) a racist regime similar to South Africa before Mandela.

We are supporting an army who openly admints to terrorism - torture, murder, ethnic cleansing, where non-Jews have no right to lease or buy land, where Palestinian homes are demolished every day.

Next time when Arabs kill our innocent, remember the Palestinian children that our tax money help kill.

I think it is high time for all US citizens who have an ounce of morality and ethics in their body to call their representatives and ask them to stop aiding the genocidal madness.

Israelis and Arabs should kill each other with their own money and weapons, not ours.
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Replies:
[> Subject: One thing


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 10:01:00 04/09/02 Tue
I don't want to repeat all of our past debates on the topic. We'd just go in a circle, but I will make a different point. It's very hard for any leader in the Middle East to take a brave step for peace. They have to contend with animosity from their own side as well as the other side.
What happens when anybody takes a bold step? Sadat murdered by Egyptians, Rabin murdered by a Jew. There's an unfortunate pattern. A lot of the people in the region having been incited by propoganda in the media and schools don't want peace. They want victory at any costs and the leaders on all sides get afraid to take bold steps for peace. It's why as much as I despise Arafat, I almost can't blame him for not taking gutsier steps for peace. There is a good chance it would be signing his death warrant. He knows what happened to Rabin and Sadat.
Peace takes a greater bravery than war. Anybody can make war, but only somebody with vision and boldness can take concrete steps toward peace after more than 50 years of war, especially when the media and educational systems in the area keep inciting people to keep the hatred going.
[> [> Subject: Agree


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 01:06:52 04/11/02 Thu
Both Jews and Arabs are locked in an ethnic cleansing effort.

I don't know who was there first, the Jews or the Arabs, neither was I witness to God's promise to Abraham.

In my mind, if God Almighty wants Sharon to kill all Palestinian children, like Herod killed all the Jewish newborns, that is between God, Sharon and the 10 commandments. But God won't need 5 billion $US every year to kill a bunch of kids armed with rocks. If He wanted that done, He would do it with a miracle, or a plague, not Apache hellicopter missles.

However Sharon needs the 5 billion/year from the US, to prove what a tough general he is, and what a great army of children murderers Israel has.

On this day of holocaust remembrance, it should be a shame for any Jew what happens in Israel. Because today, after 60some years from the holocaust, the Jewish state is the one with institutionalized racism in it's laws.

[> Subject: What about Sharon?


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 00:02:42 04/10/02 Wed
What about Sabra and Chatilla? What about laws that require Israeli Arabs to have different color on their licence plate, so they Israeli police can target them on searces? What about the rights of Palestinians in the land they were born? What about the rights of non-Jews to buy, sell and lease land in Israel?

Isn't that institutionalized racism, government state sponsored racism?

I have friends, non-Jews who married Jews and emigrated to Israel, and I know a bit about the racist laws in that country.

Between the Palestinians and the Israelis there is a primordial battle for land. Most countries get born the same way. The strong ethnically clense the week in war, and often they kill the inocent together with the guilty.

America is no exception. REmember? A good indian is a dead indian? A good Arab is a dead Arab, specially a dead Palestinian, and ethnic cleansing is just and right, moral and ethic.

But nowhere in history did another nation help clense a territory for somebody else. Let the Israelis and Palestinians kill each other till the last, but why should we pay for the bullets?

And why would we have the blood of Palestinian 12 year olds on American hands, and the curse that goes with it? Because the curse will catch on us. We endanger our children when we kill theirs. We give Osama the moral arguments he needs.

Why should we pay so that Russian Jews will kill the Palestinians in Gaza, buldoze their houses and confiscate the land?

And why are we calling Palestinians terrorists? Any man in America would do the same for his family. If an enemy would come, strip us of our citizenship in the country of our birth, kill our 12 year olds when they protest, buldoze our houses, confiscate our land to give it to some Russian born, call us insane terrorists for resisting, shoot missiles into our cities from helicopter gunsips for 50 years, what would American men do?

I hope they would do at least as much as these poor bastards in Gaza and the West Bank.

But some of us are more Jewish than American and more Jewish than moral. But we love to talk about the 10 commandments when it comes to sex, but we always find excuses for genocidal murder.
[> [> Subject: He's an oppurtunist


Author:
JeffF
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 09:36:24 04/10/02 Wed
Sharon's main goal was to get himself elected. That's why he took that trip to the Temple Mount that incited some of the violence(didn't take much). He knew that would lead to demand for stronger action and therefore to his election. It was cynical and it worked.
Past that, it's hard to see what the current policy accomplishes. Sharon has increased sympathy for Arafat and the PA among Palestinians who couldn't stand Arafat and his administration. Now, they've all rallied around him, because they understandably don't like the idea that somebody else can choose their dictator(uh leader). Sharon hasn't lessened the terror and make no mistake, suicide bombers who attack civilians are terrorists, period.
[> [> [> Subject: G. W. Bush's definition of terrorism


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 08:39:59 04/11/02 Thu
According to G.W. Bush's deffinition of terrorism, the Jews in the Warsaw getto are the terrorists, and Hitler is exercising his right to "self-defense".

Read the retart's definition of terrorism. It states clearly that terrorism is when the intent is "to change a government action or force a government decision".

Obviously, the Jews in WW2 had no government, so Hitler would not be on the Bush's wanted list.

Palestinians have no government or state either, so killing them is not terrorism either - maybe that's why Sharon is not on the list.

Just some pointers. By the way, I heard there is some formal indictment at Bruxels about Sharon's murder of over 2000 Palestinian civilians men, women and children in the refugee camps of Sabra and Chatilla.

How many Americans know who is our "brother in arms" doing the good work of God?
[> [> [> [> Subject: Quick point


Author:
JeffF
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 09:35:20 04/11/02 Thu
While I have no love for Sharon and think Israel would be better off if he went away, let's remember that he won his lawsuit against Time Magazine when Time suggested he was resposnible for or complicit in the massacres at Sabra and Chatilla,attacks that were carried out by Hadad,a Lebanese Christian and his men. Admittedly these were allies of Israel, but that's a whole different thing than saying Sharon was actually responsible.
Nevertheless Sharon's statement that his current policies will pave the way for negotiations is absurd. Negotiations with who if the whole leadership of the PA is destroyed? There has to be somebody on the other side to talk to.
[> [> [> [> Subject: What about his indictment in Israel


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 23:08:52 04/11/02 Thu
He may have won his lcawsuit with Time in the US, because in the US an Israeli minister cannot lose, but he was indicted by an Israeli military court.

He was found responsible, since he was directly in command of the Christian militias who massacred those people.

And I read he may never set foot in Bruxels because there is an indictment for him to apear in front of a war crimes tribunal.

Never the less, the Israeli people, in their great moral wisdom, have elected this criminal to lead them into the moral war of ethnic clensing. Who knows, maybe he is the AntiChrist the Bible talks about.

The point you are missing Jeff is that the majority of the Jewish Israelis do not want peace, and they don't want negociations.

70% of them support Sharon, and they are not idiots. I doubt they believe the suicide bombs are goint to stop because Sharon kills a few hundred Palestinians, mostly civilians caught in the fighting.

The majority of Jewish Israelis support Sharon, because he is the man who will deliver them what they need and want more than peace, or security for their children.

Sharon will deliver them the land of the West Bank and Gaza, ethnically clensed by Palestinians.

And this is what Jewish Israeli the immigrants from Poland and Russia need in order to grow Israel and make it stronger.

Sharon proved at Sabra and Chatilla he is the right man for the job, so they killed the peacemaker, and elected the genocidal maniac.

And you know what? They will do it. With the help of the US of A, they will make life unbearable for Palestinians, they will find legal ways to make appartheit stick, and in 30 years Gaza, and later the West Bank will be confiscated, epurated and part of Israel. Then will be the turn of South Lebanon.

Look at the map of Jewish settlements and see how the West Bank is already almost split in two.

Just don't call it moral, because it's a similar situation with the Serbs in Kosovo.

Only, what's criminal for the low life Serbs, is OK for the rich and politically well connected Jews. And at least, the Serbs didn't get foreign aid to pay for the bullets they used at Srebnica.

Now call me antisemite, beca use that's the American specially the Jewish American kneejerk reaction to facts about Israel.

How many Americans know that Israel does not cooperate with any human rights organizations?

And how many Americans have the chance to hear what some Orthodox Rabbis have to say about Palestinians? It may make Osama sound like a nice guy.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Daschle


Author:
JeffF
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 10:22:05 04/23/02 Tue
Mark, I'm happy to say that support for Israel remains steady among the Democratic Party too, not just the administration. The Senate Democratic leader Daschle gave a good speech yesterday saying that support for Israel must "be absolute and it must be maintained."
As for Sharon's support in Israel, that can't be known unti the next election. The PA elected Sharon by declining peace when Barak offered it. Sharon hasn't actually increased security though and it's quite possible that Israelis may be looking for an alternative again. But until there is somebody to talk peace with, it's hard to see what difference who the leader on the Israeli side is will make. Let's not forget the violence and increase in terrorism started before Sharon's election.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Daschle


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 23:23:15 04/23/02 Tue
Check my posts, I always maintained that unconditional support for Israel is just as strong among Democrats as it is among Republicans.

This support runs deep in the US, partly because of Jewish cultural and political dominance in America, and partly because the religious dominance of Judaism in what I call "American mainstreem religion", for lack of better terminology = or otherwise known as Evangelist Christianity.

It amaizes me to see so called "Christian" leaders like Pat Robertson, openly advocating unconditional support for Israel in spite of it breaking most commandments in the Bible.

Remember, though shall not kill (not even Palestinian 12 year olds armed with rocks), though shall not steal (not even your neighbour's house and land)?

Just the other day, I saw our American made Osama bin Laden (Pat Robertson) saying on national TV that killing Palestinian children and civilians is "normal".

Anyhow, both Palestinians and Israelis are genocidal murderers, and are led by criminal maniacs, so my deep belief is that America will keep out of it, and will stop funding either side and let them kill at their own leisure, with their own weapons.

I take Pilat from Pont's position. I do not want the blood of either Jews or Arabs on my American hands.

Sadly, I have to admit that my tax money is used today to murder Palestinian children and rob them of their inheritance, their homes and a decent life, becaues I, an American citizen do not have the power to stop our corrupt government from being bribed by Jewish interests that do not have love for this country, the US of A.

I am sad to say this, but I do believe that for every deed there is a punishment or reward, and one day, American children will have to pay for what our government is doing to Palestinian innocent children.

Have a nice day.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Daschle, Bush, etc


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 23:53:35 04/23/02 Tue
Middle East politics are a bypartisan screwup, but G. W. Bush jr. proves every day that he is a criminally inclined idiot, with no idea of intenational politics.

He is damaging this country to a high degree, starting with the economy, and ending with foreign politics.

The man is a qualified imbecil, and I wish he would resign and return to a farm in Texas where he belongs, and where his stupidity is not so visible.

So far, he proved he cannot lead in the 21st century, he doesn't have the moral makeup of a leader.

G. W. Stupid had the opportunity after Sept 11 to change American foreign policy to conform with Human Rights, and thus lead the world to a new and better future.

Instead the imbecil gave us a "definition" of terrorism that basically says "a terrorist is anyone we do not like".

The idiot qualified the rights of governments to terrorise their own subjects as well as the citizens of other countries. He turned back the clock hundreds of years in terms of human rights.

He gave a blank card to any would be war criminal wearing the uniform of a nation to kill civilians with impunity, he is disqulifying efforts to bring war criminals to international justice and he is in the process of distroying the democratic fabric of America.

G. W. Bush and his croniew (Cheney and Ascroft among others), have managed to control most free press and media, they have managed to make Orwellian "double-speak" a fact of every evening news.

When democratic guaranties from the Constitution are trampled on by the tongue speaking maniac Ascroft, and when Americans are cowarded into giving up their free speach rights, their attorney confidentiality rights and so on it is sold to American idiots as "sacrifice for Freedom" while in essence we are giving up our freedoms and righs for the sake of security.

When Bush is seeking to apease the Jewish lobbies who help his candidacy or seeks revenge for his father's ill-conceived military adventures in Iraq, we are told it is to fight "terrorism".

The amount of shameless lies, and the stupidity of an American public eager to swallow the intellectual garbage they are fed is amaizing.

But I agree, Democrats will support killing Palestinians and confiscating their lands just as well as Republicans.

But remember - according to the retard's deffinition of terrorism, George Washington would be a terrorist as well - he was a rebel against the governemnt of Great Britain, and he did kill civilians.

However, according to the same deffinition of terrorism given by idiot Bush, George Armstrong Custer, the murderer of women and children is not a terrorist, and nor would Hitler or Stalin be classified as terrorists, because they are the governemnt killing civilians, and that is not part of the definition of terrorism.

So much for the 10 commandments and the morality he claims to uphold in the White House. I always feld that morality, in American psyche condons murdera and stealing not to mention racism, but not sex.

G. W. Bush is confirmation of the sad fact. The man is a great embarassment for America.
[> Subject: Terrorists


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 00:57:55 04/11/02 Thu
G.W. Bush, the idiot who rules over the US, has given us his definition of terrorism. According to his theory, anybody is a terrorsit if Bush and his fundamentalist guardian Ashcroft say so.

The reality of terror and terrorism is different.

Yes, suicidal bombers are terrorists.

But so is the Israeli Army, and so is the MOssad. Torture is terrorism, shooting at 12 years old armed with rocks is terrorism, shooting with tanks and helicopter missles into towns and cities is terrorism, extrajudicial killing (assassination) is terrorism.

Read the Amnesty report for Israel, and don't tell me we are supporting Israel because it is a democracy.

Israel is a democracy like South Africa was in the appartheit era, or like Yugosavia was under Milosevich.

Shooting at ambulances and medics to let the wounded bleed to death and then shooting at journalists to prevent the truth from reaching the headline news - like it or not, this is the moral face of Israel under Sharon's rule.

What is most despicable, is the manner in which the international (American) Jewish community is responding.

I see on TV daily plees for ethnic cleansing. American Jews shamelessly are asking to force all Palestinians out at gunpoint (exactly what Sharon's plan was from the beginning).

If we gave Arafat 5 billion $US worth of weapons every year, I'm sure he will bomb Sharon into 2 rooms somewhere in TelAviv and it would be the Israelis straping dinamite on their dicks.

I don't buy Bush's or Sharon's definition of terrorism. Even a retard like Bush Jr. (let alone an old terrorist like Sharon) should know that you cannot stop terrorism by bombing civilians in Afganistan or Ramallah.

Respect for human rights is what prevents terrorism. Read the human rights record of Israel, and weep.

And Bush has done nothing for human rights, on the contrary, he is slowly dismantling the democratic fabric of America in the name of "freedom".

I saw soo many documentaries on terrorism, terrorists, their training and motivations.

When will we see the documentary on Sabra and Chatilla on American prime time TV, so we can see the full scale of terrorism?
[> [> Subject: Re: Terrorists


Author:
JeffF
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 09:25:44 04/11/02 Thu
Terrorism is the deliberate attack on civilians for political ends. The Warsaw Ghetto doesn't fit here, since the people being attacked were not civilians(well some of them weren't military, but they were still government officials (i.e.Nazis and Polish collaborators) who were people keeping the people there down. Whatever you think of the Israeli government, the people in the cafes and on the bus are not keeping Palestinians down and are not legitimate targets.
[> [> [> Subject: Irak and Israel


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 23:33:11 05/01/02 Wed
Hey Jeff, Irak and Israel have something in common. Both Sharon and Saddam's governments (funny, both countries start with I and both leaders with S) refuse UN inspections because they believe the UN is biassed against them...

What's the idiot Bush response? Wage war on Irak for it's weapons of mass distruction and give Israel $5 billion more of weapons of mass distruction even against US law!!!!

Last I know, Israel never signed a nuclear non-proliferation treaty, nor does it abide by human rights conventions, so we the US should not give them anything, least of all weapons.

But the good old Jewish lobby in the US has their blackmail list of both Dems and Reps, so the ethnic clensing of Palestine is assured.

By the way, from what I read about that turist minister, should he have been Palestinian he would have been on the assassination list of the MOsad and would be called a "ticking bomb". He was a Jewish fascist, he was advocating forceful removal of all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank, so in my mind, those who killed him were doing the same thing the Mossad is.

Anyhow, it is amaizing what Israel is getting away with. Israel is no democracy, except for the Jewish lobbies in the US. It's laws are a mockery of legislation, and the closest thing that comes to mind is South Africa during the appartheit era.

Remember? Nelson Mandela was a terrorist back then too.
[> [> [> [> Subject: The flaw


Author:
JeffF
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 12:12:53 05/06/02 Mon
The problem with your saying that Israel is not a democracy is that Sharon can be replaced easily any time, which is a major difference from Iraq. All Peres and the other Labor party leaders have to do is leave the coalition and there will be new elections.

BTW - In reference to the other thread, I supported a move by Susan a long time ago to ban abortion as a topic on DP all together. I don't usually believe in censorship, but abortion arguments on a message board are very unlikely to change anybodys mind and just lead to a lot of anger from everybody. I think the whole topic is unhelpful to DP and a rational discussion on the topic from either side is unlikely. Just leads to a lot of bitter feelings between members and nobody is going to change their view on this topic based on somebody else's post any way.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Paula and Abortion


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 09:04:54 05/07/02 Tue
I can't seem to get the right place to post on the threads on this site.


Paula was wrong in banning me the first time. She was the one enforcing the rules in a discriminating manner, and when I pointed out this, I was banned.

I don't have to listen to the Js and Ethans of DP calling millions of us "baby killers" and swallow it, just to be able to post on Paula's stupid board.

Bearing with the incivility of the board when it came to matters like Clinton, this "baby killer" thing is too much.

Anyhow, Paula has her right to do whatever she pleases with her board. The internet is full of censored sites designed to support the point of view of the owner. You know the internet is full of all kinds of point of views. But if I am called a baby killer for supporting the right to a legal and safe abortion, I will answer in kind.

For instance there are sites who want a "Cruciade" against Islam.

But I read a lot of history and I know that Christians lost most of the Cruciades. And more important they lost the last cruciades - Kosovo, Varna, Constantinopole.

And the results of these losses can be seen today in Istambul - visit what was St. Sophia.

In that same time, Jews fled persecution in Christian Europe (Spain in particular) to find refuge in Muslim Ottoman empire, where they lived well thank you.

And more so, I read there is a small Jewish community in Iran that seem to prosper. So, is it antisemitism? Or is it the right to live for Palestinians?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Paula and Abortion


Author:
JeffF
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 10:13:49 05/07/02 Tue
I don't think it's a problem of the whole topic of abortion is censored. This can be even handed. Just ban the topic alltogether. Your point that people were insulting you and you responded in kind was in a way my point too. What does anybody get out of discussing the topic on DP at all? There are always just a lot of shouts and insults. Sam gave it a good try on IS once to have a rational discussion of the subject, but people on both sides have such strong emotional reactions that it's almost impossible to have a rational discussion. This isn't true of any other topic in the same way. There are other places on the net to discuss abortion and I wish the topic didn't come up on DP at all. For the record, I'm pretty sure Ethan is "pro-choice" not "pro-life".

I'm well aware that Jews flourished better in Moslem countries overall than in Christian countries before the 20th century. This started to change by the twenties(there was a major pogrom in 1929 in several Arab countries as well as Palestine.) It got worse in the thirties and forties when several leaders, including the Mufti of Palestine supported the Nazis. In 1948, when the UN partitioned the country into an Arab state and a Jewish state, the Arab countries convinced the Palestinians to leave, assuring them there would be a short war and they attacked and lost and this was the start of the homelesseness for some Palestinians. In 1967, Egypt and Israel went to war and Israel begged Jordan to stay out of it. They did not and they lost the West Bank, Jersusalem and the other territories. These were captured from JORDAN. Let's not forget that there was no Palestine at the time. These areas were Jordanian and in fact King Hussein had fought his own battle against terrorism of the PLO. Also, remember that access to the holy sites of the Jews had been denied by Jordan, where until recently access to the holy sites of Islam had always been kept open by Israel.
Remember too that when Sadat became a partner to peace, he got back all his land in exchange for no war. When the Palestinian leadership becomes serious about peace, they can get most of the land too. This was the deal Barak offered at Camp David that was turned down.
As for the Jewish community in Iran, it used to do better. Khomeni changed some of this and a lot of Jews had to leave Iran, just like they had to leave Arab countries earlier in the last century.
I don't recall ever accusing you of anti-semitism or anti-Americanism or anything like that. It's true we have a basic disagreement because you confuse who the victims and the aggressors are. I have no admiration for Sharon and he would not be my choice for leader, but I think any leader of Israel would have been forced to take some defensive actions. I don't know any country in the world that would just sit back and let repeated attacks on innocent civilians take place.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Victims and Agressors


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 08:59:19 05/08/02 Wed
You are right. We are in disagreement about who the victims and agressors are.

To me, the victims are the civilians killed on all sides - Jewish, Arab and American (9/11 is a direct consequence).

I also consider victims all the Palestinians displaced without reparation, forced out of their homes at gunpoint.

I consider the Jewish settlers as aggressors, land thiefs and murderers, fundamentalists just as bad as the Hamas. Some of the Rabbis on American TV (sorry I don't follow their names) and Pat Robertson are saying the exact same things Osama is.

Pat Robertson said the other day that killing Palestinian children in Jenin "is normal because it is war". Isn't that what Osama said in the tape supposed to be "evidence"?


I believe Israel ows the same war reparations to Arab displaced people same as Jews received from Germany. These reparations should be paid to individuals, not governments up to the second and third generations. Nobody can give Israel peace, if Israel refuses to give justice.

I believe America has no business supporting any of the sides, because I believe both sides are evil, and I believe Israel is no friend of America.

Israel is nobody's friend, is a country that refuses to integrate into a world community and act according to civilized norms of behavior.

Israel is the only country in the world to my knowledge that refuses to define it's borders, refuses to sign human rights agreements and refuses to sign non nuclear proliferation while still receiving American aid.

Please tell me what did Israel ever do for America so we would kill children to make home for more Russian Jews?

Israel is not a democracy, but a theocracy. Jewish citizenship is granted by Orthodox Rabbis based on religion. Christians and Muslims, Israeli citizens have to use different color license plates to make sure they are checked by Jewish police more often, just like the Jews in Europe were forced to wear the yellow star.

Israel is led by a war criminal, a murderer of innocend women and children and a terrorist. Israel is breaking many of the 10 commandments it claims to hold dear - it steals land, it kills people, it tortures people, it spies against America it's friend.

Worse, when your friends are child murderers like Sharon, you become a child murderer, and I don't want Palestinian blood on my hands.

As for Camp David, I haven't been there, so I have little idea of what was offered, and what refused.

But I know that no settlement is possible without taking into consideration those people who were forced out of their homes at gunpoint to make room for the settlers buldozer.

Arafat cannot give you that, Sharon knows it, Bush knows it, everybody knows it, you do just as I do.

As for Paula's board, it's doing what Paula wants it to do. It is satisfying her ego and propagating her ideas. It is her board, as you all keep telling me, so if she wants to call abortion "baby killing" it's a free country.

I am also free to use this board, or others to tell you that the board sucks lately, because it became a place where like minded people are shufling like minded tired ideas.

Once in a while you get a good post (more on IS than other places) but I am sure that Paula will convince everybody on the board there is something wrong with it if it is in any way conflicting with the board platform which I can summarize below:

- Female sexuality and sex drive = good, Male sexuality and desire = bad.

- Israel kill Pal children = good. Pal kill Jewish children = bad.

- Republicans = good moral citizens with Bible and Guns to kill in the name of Jesus. Liberals are stupid idiots and baby killers, but that is not an insult, it is a fact.

- Wife don't get sex = husband bad, husband don't get sex = husband bad.

- Church is good. Church teach American to kill, wear guns , better. Army very good. American soldier kill innocent - not his fault - bad liberal government or bad people. Foreign soldier kill American very bad he terrorist.

- You question American military, American war, you no good American you traitor. You tell Oklahoma boy "go die for Isral settlements" you good American.

- American, Jewish pilot bombs children = mistake. Suicide bomber, very bad terrorist.

- Paula ski trips, very important, must discuss on every occassion.

These simplistic ideas are more suited for Ethan who is a man of character with strong simple ideas about good and evil, just like his fierce leader G.W. Baby Bush.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Hey, Mark


Author:
JeffF
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 08:01:41 05/10/02 Fri
Check out the thread Jacques started on IS called "The Road to Hell". It has an interesting discussion of the Middle East. Over there, I may be one of the more pro-Israel voices.

Obviously, I can't argue your point that civilians killed on all sides are victims. This is always unfortunately true in war, even when war is necessary. The civilian Germans in Dresden during WWII for example were victims, but that doesn't change the basic underlying fact that the Nazis were the primary aggressors and the rest of the world the primary victims. If the suicide bombs would stop, so would the retaliation and there is no country in the world that would not do would Israel did and retaliate for suicide bombings against their civilians. (just as the US did).
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Which begs the question:


Author:
KatherineJ
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Date Posted: 14:23:00 05/10/02 Fri
Why did Bush rein in Sharon? That coalition he wants is not going to get formed, or at least not the way that would be acceptable to Bush. More hand-tying and hand-holding -- form over substance, IMO.

Katherine
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: First


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 15:01:15 05/10/02 Fri
The President has so many conflicting goals,that it's hard to know why he does anything. Remember before the 11th, he had little interest in foreign policy. I think his sympathies are with Israel, but there are a lot of "pragmatists" in the State Department and elsewhere who want to remember that there are a lot of Arabs in the Middle East and we don't want them all for enemies.
Rein in Sharon though? He may have tried, but I don't think he did it. Israel doesn't wait for a green light or a red light from the US before acting.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: More news you never read in America


Author:
Mark
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Date Posted: 20:18:42 05/11/02 Sat
Why is it these deaths never make the headlines? The horrible suicide bombings do. But somehow these deaths don't matter.
Among the dead are 15 unarmed civilians (7 children, 2 women, and 6 men), 2 Palestinian police officers, and 5 alleged 'gunmen.' Hence, as usual, the vast majority of the people killed are unarmed civilians:

May 1, Rafah, Occupied Gaza:

*Huda Muhammad Shaluf, age 2, was killed by shrapnel wounds to her
head when Israeli tanks fired at her house in Rafah, Gaza. Several
other members of her family were injured.

*Bilal al-Derbi, 22 and Ahmed Abu Khebleh, 21, were killed
after being struck in the head by Israeli machine-gun fire in their
homes before dawn.

*Abdallah Shaluf, 23, was killed by a gunshot to the head while
standing outside his home.

May 2, Rafah, Occupied Gaza:
*Sabha Abu Ghanem, 48, was killed by gunshots to her chest as
Israeli occupation forces mounted on tanks and armed bulldozers
advanced into the town firing heavy machine-guns. Three others,
including another women were injured in the incident.

May 3, Rafah, Occupied Gaza:

*Ibrahim Hamad, 19, died of his injuries two weeks after being hit.
On April 22 he suffered severe injuries to his head when Israeli
tanks shelled Rafah. Two other people were injured in that incident.

May 3, Bethlehem, Occupied West Bank:

*Nidal Ismail, 12, and his brother Abed Khaled Ismail, 10, were
killed by unexploded Israeli ordnance while playing in an abandoned
Palestinian police station which had just been vacated by Israeli
occupation forces. Their 14-year-old brother Noor Ismail lost both
of his legs and a hand in the explosion.

May 3, Nablus, Occupied West Bank:

*Abdel Karim Arja, a member of the Palestinian security forces was
killed by Israeli forces making an incursion into the city.

May 4, Bethlehem, Occupied West Bank:
*Khalas Dajahrah, 35, one of the Palestinians besieged in the Church
of the Nativity was shot in the chest by an Israeli sniper. He died
after being taken to an Israeli hospital. Israel claimed he was a
highly wanted terrorist.

May 4, Al Qarara, Occupied Gaza:

*Ramzi Ayid, 25, a Palestinian police man, was killed by a gunfire
to his head while standing at his checkpoint, as Israeli tanks bore
down on him.

May 5, Tulkarem, Occupied West Bank:

*Tamer Abu Sirriyeh, age 8, was killed by gunshot wounds to the
chest when Israeli tanks opened fire with heavy machine-guns on a
Palestinian refugee camp near Tulkarem. A 16-year old by was hit in the head and suffered severe injuries in the same incident.

May 5, Jenin, Occupied West Bank:

*Fatima Ibrahim Zakarneh, 30, and her son Bassem, age 4, and
daughter Abir, age 3, were targeted and killed by Israeli tank fire,
after Israeli occupation forces were reportedly spooked by a
snapping tank tread and thought the noise was a bomb set off by the
mother and her two toddlers.

May 6, Occupied Gaza:

*Hazen al-Wadya, 22, and Mahrus al-Bahtiti, 20, were killed in a gun
battle with Israeli forces after infiltrating across the border,
according to the Israeli occupation army's unverifiable claims.

*Suheil Ziada, 27, and Mazen Abu Razek, 23, were shot dead by
Israeli occupation forces near Karni crossing. The occupation army
claimed that the men were armed and attempting to infiltrate into
Israel.

May 6, Rafah, Occupied Gaza:

*Hassan Abul Jaza, 54, died of gunshot wounds to the head that he
had suffered five days previously when Israeli occupation forces
attacked Rafah.

May 7, Rafah, Occupied Gaza:

*Jamal al-Shaar, 17, was shot dead by Israeli occupation forces as
he came out of his home. His 15-year old brother was shot and
injured. The occupation forces then demolished their home.


Tell me Jeff. Why should my money pay for this? And if I do pay for the Israeli assassins wages, what moral right do I have?

Why shouldn't the families of those above hate me and all those I love, and try to do the same to them, as my money is doing to their loved ones?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: See my realty check post


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 20:12:58 05/11/02 Sat
About the idiot Bush.

And I copied a post from Yahoo Middle East Board. Maybe Jeff can tell me all these are lies:

Israels is the greatest at some things
by: americafirstlastforever (27/F/Buena Park, CA) 05/09/02 05:49 pm

Msg: 37514 of 37573

Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis are prohibited from buying or leasing land in Israel?

Did you know that automobile license plates in Israel and the occupied territories are
color-coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?

Did you know that in the occupied territories Israeli authorities allocate 85 percent of the
water resources for the tiny Jewish population, and the remaining 15 percent for the vastly
larger Arab population? In Hebron, for example, 85 percent of the water is set aside for
about 400 Jewish "settlers," while 15 percent must be divided among Hebron's 120,000
non-Jews.

Did you know that the United States provides Israel with $5 billion in aid each year?

Did you know that yearly US aid to Israel exceeds annual US aid to all the countries of
sub-Saharan Africa combined?

Did you know that the Israel is the only country in the Middle East that has nuclear
weapons?

Did you know that the Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the
nuclear non-proliferation treaty, and bars international inspection of its sites?

Did you know that for more than 30 years Israel has occupied territory of neighboring
Syria in defiance of international law and United Nations Security Council resolutions?

Did you know that Israel has for decades routinely sent assassins to kill political enemies
in other countries?

Did you know that high-ranking Israel Defense Forces officers have admitted publicly that
IDF troops summarily killed unarmed prisoners of war?

Did you know that Israel refuses to prosecute IDF troops who have acknowledged
executing prisoners of war?

Did you know that Israel routinely confiscates bank accounts, businesses and land of
non-Jews, and refuses to pay compensation to the victims?

Did you know that on June 8, 1967, Israeli war planes attacked an American naval ship,
the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 American sailors, and wounding 177.


I know most of these, and that's why I think it is time we tell our government to stop aiding this criminal nation, and to our fellow Jewish countrymen to decide if they want to be Jews first, American second, or the other way around.

German Americans, Italian Americans made these choices. Jewish Americans seem to favor Israel before their own country, and I say it is time they change, or move to Gaza and the West Bank and build their future there with their own money.

I do not want my tax money used by Israel to for murder, torture and genocidal ethnic clensing in the name of God.

My God does not hate Palestinian children.

If somebody worships a God who hates Palestinian children, he/she should follow Sharon in Gaza. That includes the Satan Worship fundamentalists like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell who believe the same.

They should go to the occupied territories and strangle Arab babies with their own hands, but not as Americans, but as Israelis.

This nation has laws that prohibit an American national from serving in a foreign army and conflict. There are thousands of Jewish Americans who are Israeli veterans, and were American citizens at the time they fought ethnic cleansing wars in Palestine.

Why does our government prosecute them?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Let's face is, reality check


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 01:51:53 05/11/02 Sat
The president is a meritless idiot. He got elected by a minority of the minority of voters, and he mainly got there because of judicial flop and royal birth.

The man is so stupid, he really thinks he is Richard Lionhearth, riding mighty charging the Muslim hoards in a Holy Cruciades. His brain is developed at the 12 year old level, less the dead braincells caused by alcohol overdoze.

What he lacks in intelligence or knowledge, he makes up in blind idiotic fundamentalist belief.

The man is a danger to the nation, and sooner or later will get all of us in trouble.

And any idiot is not complete if he is not arogant. So Baby Bush has decided in his complete arogance that everybody he dislikes is a terrorist.

No, the IRA is not terrorist - too many drunk Irish friends of his in Texas. No, Sharon is not a war criminal and a terroris. Terrorists are those Pat Robertson and the Christian Coalition points at him. And Musharaf is a good democrat, not a dictator like Sadam, fomenting nuclear war with India.

His idea of international politics is that of a drunk Texan cowboy raising hell in a bar shooting from the hip and hitting mostly the piano player and the bartender.

Sooner or later, if nobody takes the guns away from the moron, we'll face ourselves in WW3 and it ain't going to look pretty, like WW1 or WW2.

This time it's going to hit our soil, and it's going to hit our homes. Frankly I'd rather have all the settlers in Gaza and the West Bank executed by Hamas than see American cities targeted with bio-weapons so Israel's IDF can torture Palestinians at leisure.

I just can't believe there are so many idiots in this country who support the moron.

As for Sharon and the Israelis, they probably laugh their a$$es off when they talk about Bush.

Bush barks at Sharon like a caged dog to a cat that spits on him. The problem is the Israeli cat is not just spitting at Bush, but is also spitting at America.

It rifts us apart from our European allies and friends, and it endangers the lives of all of us.

Where is Monica Lewinski when you need her? Maybe if she sucked his dick, the Fundamentalists in the Republican Party would elect somebody that can be up to the tasks.

Look at the countries that get closer to us, and the ones that get further away.

Europe, Norway, Denmark, France, Germany even England departs from the Bush wars, and we shack mostly with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and some other good human rights democratic countries.

Disgusting.
[> [> [> [> Subject: Was Mandela a terrorist or not?


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 23:29:50 05/06/02 Mon
I remember when Mandela was a terrorist and the racist government of South Africa was a "democracy".

It is very sad that Arabs have been dehumanized in the US.

By the way Jeff, I saw first hand how Israelis treat Palestinians. I saw grown Jewish men taunting Palestinians in front of their children, like bullies in a schoolyard. If people would treat me like that, I would kill them also.

The laws Israel has today on its books, and the Jewish media campain in the US against Arabs make me wonder if Jews deserve to have a country of their own.

If you, and others like you, Israeli Jews, American Jews, or plain stupid Americans brainwashed by Pat Robertson cannot understand why young men and women would prefer death than foreign occupation, you really are not ready to own a country.

Whatever Osama may have done to this country it is not the same for the Palestinians. The Palestinians are fighting for their own homes. They are fighting so they, and their loved would not be removed at gunpoint from their homes, like Jews did before.

What Israel is doing today is disgusting. What America is doing is even worse. If Israel is flushin its morals down the toiled for land grab, America is flushing its morals down the toilet for the power thirst of the Bushes and the mad conservatives that run it and the stupidity and ignorance of those who vote for those fascists.

There is one post on Inner Sanctum I really wish I had the opportunity to answer. The post had to do with "Why do Arabs hate America", and was filled with the usual "because they hate our freedom".

Well, Palestinians hate America because we provide the ammunition that kills their children and robs them of their homes and land.

And Arafat or no Arafat, they are in the right and Sharon is in the wrong. Sharon is defending nothing, he knows he is unable to stop terrorism, with or without Arafat. Sharon knew very well what he did at the Temple. Sharon wants more land for his settlers and 300 million Americans fall like suckers for the propaganda maintained by 16 million Jews who do not seem to love this country like their own.
[> [> Subject: Re: Terrorists


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 23:14:48 04/11/02 Thu
Yes, they are not. I'm not so sure about settlers.

Jewish Settlers in Gaza and the West Bank are fundamentalists, and they have a choice.

They expose themselves and their family to danger because they want to take by force land that belongs to others.

If somebody wants to take my home by force, I have a legitimat right to kill him/her.

If the damn setlers would move out, Israel would give the Palestinians a chance to live in peace.

But the greedy bastards would rather have their own kids killed that give back what they stole.
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