Create a New Forum Admin Login Member Login Contribute to Voyager Search VoyForums Help Desk VoyForums Exchange VoyForums Directory/Categories VoyForums Homepage VoyForums News FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions

[ Show ]

Support VoyForums

[ Shrink ]

VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, [8], 9, 10 ]

Subject: Re: Is there morality without God (oldie but goodie) Author: Pam [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 02:33:05 07/19/01 Thu In reply to: Mark7 's message, "Is there morality without God (oldie but goodie)" on 21:47:07 07/18/01 Wed Of course there can be morality without Jesus, God, Jehovah, Allah, Buddha or any of the world's many deities. Kind of like those logic problems in statistics. "All poodles are white. Poodles are dogs. Therefore all dogs must be white" True or False? False of course. All true christians are moral, therefore all moral people must be christians. Wrong. Before there was Jesus, before there was a bible, there were many moral people. There are still many areas of the world where the people have no gods whatsoever, and they have some of highest moral standards on the planet. Kindness, loyalty, faithfulness, has nothing to do with God or a lack thereof. On the opposite hand are those people who believe in God, and have no morals whatsoever. Rapists, murderers, pedophiles...their belief in God hasn't exactly given them stellar morals, now has it? For every priest or minister who molests a child, there's an atheist who doesn't. End of discussion. Pam [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> Subject: So what is morality? Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:42:47 07/20/01 Fri I still haven't found a good answer for that question. What is moral, and what not? Is morality what the Pope says? Or what the Rabbi says? Maybe the Mufty? Since you claim your morality comes from inside (I am that way also, but not everybody is - we are introverts), is morality whatever we feel? The Jesus thing was just a bit of trap I laid for Jeff. I wanted him to get an idea about how it feels to be excluded from morality. I think it worked. Again, the question is irrelevant, and intellectually deceiving, that's why I took on the issue. Obvious, if you are a Christian, morality comes from Jesus. If you are a monotheist, morality comes from God, together with the Genesis. If you are a pagan, morality comes from all kinds of Gods, big and small, and if you believe the stork created the world, morality comes from the Stork. I guess if you are an atheist, morality comes from nothingness. And if you are an agnostic, you simply don't know, and don't care, as long as you know what it is. Personally, I have enough difficulty figuring out what is moral, and what not, let alone where it comes from. And I am really scared of people who know exactly what's moral and what not, and where it all comes from, because they must be soooo muuuch beetteeer than me.

[> [> [> Subject: Re: So what is morality? Author: Pam [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:00:38 07/20/01 Fri To me, morality is simple. It's a matter of not doing things to others that you don't want to have happen to you or your loved ones. If you don't want someone coming into your house and stealing your stereo, then we is it okay for you to do the same to someone else? If you don't want to hear a guy call your mother, sister or daughter a worthless bitch, then don't do it yourself. Morality is just a basic tenet says not to cause deliberate mental or physical suffering to others. I can kind of see what you're questioning, the fact that if Bob feels hitting your wife is wrong, that is his morals. But if Phil thinks it's fine to knock the ol' lady around, then obviously his morals are different, so who is right? I'd say that since Phil's wife probably doesn't agree with Phil's behavior that Phil is wrong. If the majority of the people (regardless of religion or lack thereof) think an activity is wrong, then it's probably amoral. Once again, there are tribes with no religion of any sort, no laws, no punishments for breaking the law (since it rarely happens), and they just "know" that you shouldn't steal your neighbor's goat. Pam

[> [> [> [> Subject: steal your neighbor's goat? Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:28:56 07/20/01 Fri What about having sex with your neighbor's goat, when the goat is willing? Apparently, humanity differs considerably on that question. American Indians had no problem with homosexuality, and they were not atheists. Japanese have no problem with prostitution, and they were not atheists either. Lots of people have no problem with killing humans outside the group or religion. Killing a human who was not part of your tribe would be kosher many parts around the world. I think morality is a code one lives by, for some, like you or me, it comes from the inside, but for many others it comes from the outside, it is taught. Lots of people in the US say, and believe the US is the richest country on earth, yet they never set foot outside the county. How would they know? They heard that on TV. Others think Palestinians are all born mentally derainged terrorists. They never ever talked with a Palestinian, and with the grace of CNN and NBC, never saw a Palestinian mother crying for her 12 year old shoot by Israelis. Most Americans only saw on TV the Israeli 12 year old killed by Palestinians. So they believe it is moral to bankroll Israel in ethnically clensing Palestine of Palestinians with American guns and amo, and can't figure why Arabs hate us. Most people say that killing is wrong, yet they see nothing immoral in joining the army and putting an oath to kill whomever their commander tells them. Even more, they say it is not terrorism to bomb civilians from 30000 feet, but it would be wrong to shoot at 200 feet with a rifle and hit a few civilians. Laura Schlessinger believes any kind of sex is immoral, except the one she had with her boss while married to another. Very strange. If there is one thing that may make me doubt morality comes from God, it is the variety of morals we all have. All these people are sincere in their moral belief. They see no contradiction.