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Subject: Is there morality without God (oldie but goodie)


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 21:47:07 07/18/01 Wed
 I pick on Jeff these days.

Is there morality without God? Jeff seems to think there isn't.

Well, my question is this: Is there morality without Jesus?

Seems to me that without Jesus, there is no morality. It is just fear. Fear of the punishment of an Almighty God with no forgiveness.

There is no compassion, no forgiveness, no chance for deep emotion that would liberate the soul.

Without Jesus, slavary is moral, and so is looking for No 1.

I'm curious about the answers to this one.
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Replies:
[> Subject: Since I'm a believer


Author:
Melody
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Date Posted: 22:50:10 07/18/01 Wed
It is kind of difficult for me to say Yes, there is....However, I know of some non-believers, (Ethan being one himself I think), who are of the highest moral beings ....Sooooooo....I guess then, that it is possible to have ethics and morals without being a 'Jesus or God believer"

It's all about love...Loving others, allows us to treat them as we would want to be treated ourselves..Right? Hence, morals.... And even agnostics or atheists love....:-)

[> Subject: Re: Is there morality without God (oldie but goodie)


Author:
Pam
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Date Posted: 02:33:05 07/19/01 Thu
Of course there can be morality without Jesus, God, Jehovah, Allah, Buddha or any of the world's many deities. Kind of like those logic problems in statistics. "All poodles are white. Poodles are dogs. Therefore all dogs must be white" True or False? False of course. All true christians are moral, therefore all moral people must be christians. Wrong. Before there was Jesus, before there was a bible, there were many moral people. There are still many areas of the world where the people have no gods whatsoever, and they have some of highest moral standards on the planet. Kindness, loyalty, faithfulness, has nothing to do with God or a lack thereof. On the opposite hand are those people who believe in God, and have no morals whatsoever. Rapists, murderers, pedophiles...their belief in God hasn't exactly given them stellar morals, now has it? For every priest or minister who molests a child, there's an atheist who doesn't. End of discussion.

Pam
[> [> Subject: So what is morality?


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 20:42:47 07/20/01 Fri
I still haven't found a good answer for that question.

What is moral, and what not? Is morality what the Pope says?

Or what the Rabbi says? Maybe the Mufty?

Since you claim your morality comes from inside (I am that way also, but not everybody is - we are introverts), is morality whatever we feel?

The Jesus thing was just a bit of trap I laid for Jeff. I wanted him to get an idea about how it feels to be excluded from morality. I think it worked.

Again, the question is irrelevant, and intellectually deceiving, that's why I took on the issue.

Obvious, if you are a Christian, morality comes from Jesus. If you are a monotheist, morality comes from God, together with the Genesis. If you are a pagan, morality comes from all kinds of Gods, big and small, and if you believe the stork created the world, morality comes from the Stork.

I guess if you are an atheist, morality comes from nothingness. And if you are an agnostic, you simply don't know, and don't care, as long as you know what it is.

Personally, I have enough difficulty figuring out what is moral, and what not, let alone where it comes from.

And I am really scared of people who know exactly what's moral and what not, and where it all comes from, because they must be soooo muuuch beetteeer than me.
[> [> [> Subject: Re: So what is morality?


Author:
Pam
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 21:00:38 07/20/01 Fri
To me, morality is simple. It's a matter of not doing things to others that you don't want to have happen to you or your loved ones. If you don't want someone coming into your house and stealing your stereo, then we is it okay for you to do the same to someone else? If you don't want to hear a guy call your mother, sister or daughter a worthless bitch, then don't do it yourself. Morality is just a basic tenet says not to cause deliberate mental or physical suffering to others.

I can kind of see what you're questioning, the fact that if Bob feels hitting your wife is wrong, that is his morals. But if Phil thinks it's fine to knock the ol' lady around, then obviously his morals are different, so who is right? I'd say that since Phil's wife probably doesn't agree with Phil's behavior that Phil is wrong. If the majority of the people (regardless of religion or lack thereof) think an activity is wrong, then it's probably amoral. Once again, there are tribes with no religion of any sort, no laws, no punishments for breaking the law (since it rarely happens), and they just "know" that you shouldn't steal your neighbor's goat.

Pam
[> [> [> [> Subject: steal your neighbor's goat?


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 21:28:56 07/20/01 Fri
What about having sex with your neighbor's goat, when the goat is willing?

Apparently, humanity differs considerably on that question.

American Indians had no problem with homosexuality, and they were not atheists. Japanese have no problem with prostitution, and they were not atheists either.

Lots of people have no problem with killing humans outside the group or religion.

Killing a human who was not part of your tribe would be kosher many parts around the world.

I think morality is a code one lives by, for some, like you or me, it comes from the inside, but for many others it comes from the outside, it is taught.

Lots of people in the US say, and believe the US is the richest country on earth, yet they never set foot outside the county. How would they know?

They heard that on TV.

Others think Palestinians are all born mentally derainged terrorists. They never ever talked with a Palestinian, and with the grace of CNN and NBC, never saw a Palestinian mother crying for her 12 year old shoot by Israelis. Most Americans only saw on TV the Israeli 12 year old killed by Palestinians.

So they believe it is moral to bankroll Israel in ethnically clensing Palestine of Palestinians with American guns and amo, and can't figure why Arabs hate us.

Most people say that killing is wrong, yet they see nothing immoral in joining the army and putting an oath to kill whomever their commander tells them.

Even more, they say it is not terrorism to bomb civilians from 30000 feet, but it would be wrong to shoot at 200 feet with a rifle and hit a few civilians.

Laura Schlessinger believes any kind of sex is immoral, except the one she had with her boss while married to another.

Very strange. If there is one thing that may make me doubt morality comes from God, it is the variety of morals we all have.

All these people are sincere in their moral belief. They see no contradiction.
[> Subject: Re: Is there morality without God (oldie but goodie)


Author:
Kevin
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Date Posted: 02:52:03 07/19/01 Thu
All I know is that there's no morality without coffee.
[> Subject: Re: Is there morality without God (oldie but goodie)


Author:
Dana
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Date Posted: 08:03:15 07/19/01 Thu
I agree with everything that Pam said on this one. My views are along the same lines.

I also agree with Kevin *G*.

Dana
[> Subject: What I said


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 08:06:01 07/19/01 Thu
"I pick on Jeff these days."
Hey, that's ok. I'm a big boy(well, a skinny boy, actually, but you know what I mean. :-))
Just know that I'll always respond if I'm around.

"Is there morality without God? Jeff seems to think there isn't."
That's not exactly what I said. I never said an atheist couldn't be moral. What I said and it was slightly misunderstood was without a belief in something higher than man,what's to stop man from doing anything he wants? Also what's to stop man from replacing it with a dangerous belief. Remember that Mao, the greatest butcher of the last century was elevated to cultlike status by his followers. This is all I'm saying - the risk in not believing in something higher than man is that we elevate one man to godlike status and follow him blindly. Obviously, not all atheists do this or even most atheist do this. However, you cannot deny the historical fact that people have blindly followed charismatic leaders and yes, I do think that's a poor substitute for God.
I don't disagree with anything Pam said. Of course, there can be atheists who are kind and loyal. Dante's one of the nicest guys I know.
It's also not my job to be concerned with whether or not you believe in God. Jews for the most part don't proslytize.

"Seems to me that without Jesus, there is no morality. It is just fear. Fear of the punishment of an Almighty God with no forgiveness"

Where are you getting this? The God of the Old Testament is constantly forgiving people? Plus, there is no mention of Hell in the Old Testament. Hell is really a Christian concept. Sorry, but the God I believe in is a god of forgiveness.

"There is no compassion, no forgiveness, no chance for deep emotion that would liberate the soul."

Says who? What story are you basing this on? I wouldn't care to believe in a God who I thought required any of this, but if there's any such requirement I've never heard about it. Where in the 10 commandments does it say this?

"Without Jesus, slavery is moral"

A curious statement Mark. If this is so, explain how Southern Christians owned slaves. The coming of Jesus didn't end slavery in the world.
[> [> Subject: Re: What you said


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 08:13:12 07/19/01 Thu
belief in something higher than man. . .

well what about the belief that man isn't as high as most religions make him out to be?

Its kind of the same thing only turned around. YOu don't have to believe there is something greater you can believe that humans are lesser. . . does that make sense?

For example: we aren't in God's image, we are only animals, we are born, we live and we die. That is the basis of a certain humility and yes a morality that one could argue is much less egotistical and less damaging.
[> [> [> Subject: Egos


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 08:38:17 07/19/01 Thu
"Well what about the belief that man isn't as high as most religions make him out to be."

Why is man made out to be high? Because he is "exalted over the animals?"(note - I'm not saying he is or he isn't. I'm quoting to see if that's what you mean")

"You don't have to believe there is something greater you can believe that humans are lesser"

I'm a litle confused. If there's nothing greater, what's man lesser than? Also, why would he think so? If there's nothing greater than man, why wouldn't man think he was the greatest thing in the world?

"we aren't in God's image."

Ok, if there is no God, then this is obvious.

"we are only animals"

You mean no greater than the turtle or the wolf or the crab?

"We live and we die"
True enough whether we believe in God or not, unless you're talking about questions of the afterlife.

"That is the basis of a certain humility"

This is the part I'm not totally following. If there's nothing greater than man, what is the basis of humility? The belief that man is just one animal among many, no better or worse?

BTW - IS there any equivalent over here to the "reply with quote" on the hearth boards?
[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Egos


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 14:27:44 07/19/01 Thu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Well what about the belief that man isn't as high as most religions make him out to be."

Why is man made out to be high? Because he is "exalted over the animals?"(note - I'm not saying he is or he isn't. I'm quoting to see if that's what you mean")

MOST RELIGIONS (HECK EVEN SOME SCIENTISTS) MAKE HUMANS OUT TO BE SOMETHING SPECIAL. I DON'T KNOW WHAT EXALTED MEANS: BETTER DIFFERENT SPECIAL. . .


"You don't have to believe there is something greater you can believe that humans are lesser"

I'm a litle confused. If there's nothing greater, what's man lesser than?

ONE DOESN'T NEED A GREATER BEING TO BELIEVE IN, IN ORDER TO BELIEVE THAT HUMANS ARE NOT AS SPECIAL AS WE THINK WE ARE.

If there's nothing greater than man, why wouldn't man think he was the greatest thing in the world? THAT DOES NOT IMPLY THE CONVERSE (?) THAT THERE'S NOTHING LESSER THAN MAN. WHICH IS WHAT I'M TRYING TO ARGUE.

"we aren't in God's image."

Ok, if there is no God, then this is obvious.

"we are only animals"

You mean no greater than the turtle or the wolf or the crab?
CORRECT.

"We live and we die"
True enough whether we believe in God or not, unless you're talking about questions of the afterlife.

CORRECT. i'M TRYING TO PROVIDE THE ATHEIST VIEWPOINT OF BEING

"That is the basis of a certain humility"

This is the part I'm not totally following. If there's nothing greater than man, what is the basis of humility? The belief that man is just one animal among many, no better or worse? CORRECT. AND i WOULD SAY THAT BELIEF IN A HIGHER POWER OR BEING DOES NOT NECESSITATE THE EXISTENCE OF MORALITY ALTHOUGH IT CAN BE A SOURCE OF INSPIRATION FOR THOSE SEEKING TO BE MORAL. I'M ARGUING THAT THE SOURCE OF MORALITY IS NOT SIMPLY IN THE BELIEF IN A HIGHER BEING BUT THE SOURCE COMES FROM OUR CAPACITY TO SYMPATHISE, EMPATHISE AND FEEL HUMILITY. A VARIETY OF SOURCES OF KNOWING, BELIEVING AND BEING CAN PROVIDE THE INSPIRATION FOR MORALITY. BUT FUNDAMENTALLY MORALITY IS A REFERENCE TO NOT CUTTING ONE ANOTHER'S THROATS. SEE MY POST TO MARK BELOW.
SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS BUT IT SEEMED LIKE THIS MIGHT BE THE EASIEST WAY TO REPLY TO YOUR QUOTES.

HAVE i DONE A BETTER JOB OF EXPLAINING MYSELF? I;LL THINK ABOUT THIS SOME M0RE AND SEE IF I CAN DO IT BETTER. . .
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Yes


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 15:32:59 07/19/01 Thu
Yes, that was much clearer and you can see that I had figured out a good part of where you were going.
Certainly I concede that belief in a higher power does not in any sense by itself lead to morality. Hell,ancient religions believed in gods of war which didn't exactly lead to kindness to your neighbor. :-)

I'm also willing to concede that man might not necessarily be superior to the cardinal, the cat or the turtle, but I draw the line at pit bulls, roaches and mice, all of which man is surely superior to.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: lol


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 16:24:51 07/19/01 Thu
Another rephrasing just because I need the practice:

just because there is no one better than you, does not mean that you are better than everyone else. . .you, me, man, woman, humans, other animals. . .
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: What about?


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 06:28:58 07/20/01 Fri
Plants, flowers and trees? How far do you want to take this idea? Do you think it's possible that man is no better than the cactus?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: better? or


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 17:38:41 07/20/01 Fri
different?

Here's something I JUSt came across in my reading last night and it is SO on point!:

"The Catholic Church. . . saw the universe as vertically arranged bvetween heaven and earth. From this perspective, it made sense to speak of "higher" and "lower" forms of life, with humans being closest to the deity. Via philosophy, this way of thinking permeated all of the social sicences and humanities, where it still lingers, even though biology has made it absolutely clear that the idea of a linear progression among life forms is mistaken. Every organism fits on the phylogenetic tree without being above or below anything else. Biologists make distinctions betweeen organisms that do well or are extinct, that are specialized or generalized, or that multiply slowly or rapidly, but they never look at one organism as a model that others strive for or that is inherently superior."

from The Ape and The Sushi Master, by Frans DeWaal pp.81-82,
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: But wouldn't it suck if this were so?


Author:
Melody
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Date Posted: 22:33:35 07/19/01 Thu
Just another being..No greater, no better or worse than any other animal...Just another animal on the food chain....

I choose to believe in God and Jesus...I want to believe, therefore, I do....
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: not necessarily


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 17:31:37 07/20/01 Fri
Because your description (another on the food chain) leaves out how wonderful all of creation is. Remember that better and worse are value judgments, and how one assigns the value judgment is different from an understanding of how we are different from other animals.

All of God's creation is wonderous. I think one can believe in God and Jesus and also retain a certain humility about humanity and its place in that creation.

(we've had in depth discussions on IS about evolution and I very much believe that evolution is the most likely tool that God used to make this "creation." But I won't repeat all of that here.)

just my thoughts. maybe none too coherent on this friday afternoon. . .
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: God's creations are not equal


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 22:17:12 07/20/01 Fri
How many times do I hear on TV about how people are intruding into the Rhino, the Lion, the Leopard, the Tiger's land, and how it's only their fault if they get killed or maimed.

Funny none of these people had to go drink water from a river where they may be snatched by a crock.

And I love the one about the Shark: The Shark really doesn't like eating people, he likes seals. The only time a Shark eats humans is when it confuses them with Seals.

I bet it would make a surfer feel a lot better in the Shark's belly, knowing the Shark didn't fully enjoy the meal.

In all honesty, I believe the life of a mountain gorrilla is worth much more in wester eyes, than the lives of hundreds of Africans living close to it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: well yah of course


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 09:49:31 07/22/01 Sun
why should anyone care about the poor and undertrodden of any nation? The mere fact that they are poor is evidence of their sin and ungodliness. All they have to do to re-achieve a state of grace is to work hard, produce and acquire things.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Supply and Demand


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 16:17:29 07/22/01 Sun
The supply of poor Africans far exceeds the supply of mountain gorrillas, leopards, lions and tigers.

That's another funny controversy.

If I remember correctly, in the New Testament there is a referrence by Jesus, where Jesus says in essence that it is impossible for rich people to get into heaven.

Are we Americans doomed to Hell?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: yep


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 17:15:52 07/22/01 Sun
according to the author of that portion of the New Testament we are. Time to move to a different country Huh? maybe we should all immigrate to africa?
[> [> Subject: Falling into my trap Jeff


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 08:34:05 07/19/01 Thu
There is no morality without WHICH God, Jeff?

That is the key. Once you say that there is no morality for atheists or agnostics, like our fearless fundamentalist leader G. Bush Sr., why stop?

Is there any morality for Budists? Well, many people will simply tell you that this country was not build by Budists.

Of course, if they read enough history they might find that the railroads that made possible the colonization of this country were build by many Chinese Budists, but the hell with them.

If you let the Pandora box of "no morality without religion" out, you will find there is no morality without exactly your church's kind of religion.

Morality is nothing but a set of rules designed to prevent people from cutting each other's throats.

Except that we keep doing just that, with or without the name of God.

The Spanish conquistadors were Christian and killed in the name of Jesus.

The Israeli settlers are clensing Palestine of Palestinians in the name of God.

Most Germans in WW2 defined themselves as Christians, Catholics and Reformed, not as Atheists as you want us to believe.

Muslims call a Jihad to commit some of the most horrible attrocities of our times.

Sorry Jeff, but looking at history one may wonder about human morality, religious or not.

I think the question, when asked like it is on IS, is just looking for answers to justify one's bigotry against other groups of people.

Unlike for Moses, God didn't show Himself to me in a burning bush. Unlike Jakob, I didn't wrestle with Him.

Whenever I felt a presence of God, it was in a mist of very HUMAN emotions.

I am willing to bet that God decided to touch us through our emotions and not our intellect. If God wanted us to let us find Him with our intellect, there would be signs in the sky, burning bushes and sticks that change into snakes.

Most of us find God in joy, sorrow, fear or happiness.

The question: is there no morality without God is ment towards the emotions, not the intellect.

It means: I believe in something different than you, therefore I am justified in hurting you. I am justified in excluding you from my EMOTIONS, so it would be easy to kill, or subdue you.

When Bush says that this country was not build for atheists, he means: I want to be able not to feel my own guilt when I take money from fundamentalists to make laws hurting atheists. I want to feel that atheists are less human, therefore I am justified in hurting them.

I bet the Israeli soldiers have a similar way of excluding muslims from humanity. They need some psychological vent when shooting stone armed 12 year olds, unless they are trully monsters.

Maibe our mores do come from God. But they come in many shapes and colors, and they come to us well hidden in human emotions.

Don't stirr up these emotions the wrong way, because they will muddy your vision and you won't be able to see the difference between God's mores and your own follies.
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Falling into the trap


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 08:38:30 07/19/01 Thu
"Morality is nothing but a set of rules designed to prevent people from cutting each other's throats."

I think that's basically correct. I think the underpinnings of morality are sympathy and empathy. We don't want others to suffer what we know to be suffering. But *who* we feel sympathy or empathy for depends on our cultural construct. A brutal person can be extremely moral to his own friends and family but ruthless to the enemy, the non-person, one who is not Di'neh, to the gooks, etc. . . Belief in a higher being does not determine the size of the circle in which one's empathy extends.

I also believe that humility is a fundamental underpinning to morality and certainly that does not flow directly from a belief in a higher being.
[> [> [> Subject: You're kidding yourself, Mark


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 08:51:30 07/19/01 Thu
Do you honestly think that most of the historical atrocities you've mentioned wouldn't have been committed if people weren't religious? They would have used another excuse. Anybody can and have claimed to have God on their side(Remember the song "With God on our side from the Vietnam era?") But, if they didn't believe in God, they would use another excuse. Patriotism has been used as many times as an excuse for war as anything else. You don't look down on other people because you believe in God. If you look down on other people and don't believe in God, you'll give yourself another excuse and one that works better because if you believe in a God of all people, then you shouldn't be looking down on other people anyway.
I repeat what I've said before - most so-called religious wars(The Middle East, the Balkans, Ireland, India-Pakistan) are really wars over land. People use relgion as justification,but they'd use something else otherwise.

I assume this thread started because of the IS thread that I took down. If you're refering to a current thread, point me to it.
[> [> [> [> Subject: No. I just thinik the question is intellectually deceiving


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 20:30:39 07/20/01 Fri
It is obvious that if one believes in A God, Creator of the Univers, and everything in it, MOrality, and the rest of the world comes from God.

Why would then one, who calls himself/herself a believer would even ask the question? To what end or purpose?

What would you say if a polideist would say that morality doesn not come from ONe God, but was voted by a committee of Gods with a slight majority?

Or to a communist who would talk to you about "communist morality"?

And most of all, why do we have some many moralities anyhow?

Why do people see morality so different? It is obvious to me that throwing God into morality questions has only one purpose. To bring the Power of God to bear into imposing MY morality over yours.

It does seem to me that the most useful thing politicians have used God for justifying their own rules as "moral" and Godly.

If you want an intelligent thread, ask these questions:

Why do we have such different moralities around the world?

and most of all:

What is morality? What is moral, and what not?

If killing isn't moral, why do we regard soldiers as moral, and prostitus as immoral?

If one believes in Christ, why would one want to be rich?

If one believes in the old Testament, why would one not be circucised?

The list can go on.

But it is intellectually lazy and profitable to say:

My morals come from God, therefore I am better than you, you should do as I say, I am a special, priviledged person.

Bush Sr. sure made the statement. Your question seems to support it.
[> Subject: Re: Is there morality without God (oldie but goodie)


Author:
Morality is not a set of rules
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 16:31:00 07/19/01 Thu
Rules have nothing to do with morality. If it was "rules" that explained behavior, then there would be no explanation for those isolated native tribes in the amazon who HAVE no rules, yet are "moral" people. There are some of them that don't have laws or a code of conduct, simply because 99% of the members would never dream of doing anything amoral. There's no standard punishment for murder, no rule that says "you shouldn't kill someone" simply because these people are so peaceful that they can't conceive of harming another human. This incidentally explains the ability of our wonderful "civilized" race to completely annihilate many races. Many babies, too young to understand rules, will behave in a manner that shows their concern about other's feelings, while other babies show definite signs of aggression and selfishness at the same age. Laws and rules weren't made to force morality on the average man, laws and rules were made to protect the average man from those with no morals or sense of rightness.

I would never consider killing an innocent person in cold blood, or committing robbery. This has nothing to do with RULES. It's just how I feel inside. I wouldn't have any problem killing someone who threatened me, or molested my daughter, which IS against the "rules". Does that make me immoral or amoral? Morals are simply the ability to do the right thing. Honesty, kindness, loyalty, etc shouldn't have to need rules to make them standard behavior. The rules are there for people who have no concept that it is wrong to be a serial killer, a rapist, a thief. There are people who are born with asocial personalities, who truly believe that it is okay to do whatever they want at any cost to others. Without "rules" they would assume that any behavior was permissible.

For example, most children will lash out and hit if they get frustrated and angry. Most of these toddlers will discover that this isn't very nice the first time they get hit back and discover how it feels. The don't need rules to tell them that hitting hurts others. An asocial child will hit, and decide that the pain of getting hit back is worth having the ability to strike anyone at any time. Without a parent to tell them "don't hit other people", they see nothing wrong with continuing that behavior. It doesn't bother THEM to be hit, so why would it bother anyone else? Basically, morals can be condensed into "the ability to know what type of negative effect your behavior will have on others, and the UNDERSTANDING of how it makes them feel, with a desire not to make others feel bad".

Pam
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