Well many of your questions aren't throuroughly explained, but I'll do my best -- DUNE Novels Discussion Board

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05/ 5/25 02:49:27 [ Login ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, [2], 3, 4 ]

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Date Posted: 13:37:51 07/15/03 Tue
Author: IDAHO
Subject: Well many of your questions aren't throuroughly explained, but I'll do my best
In reply to: Jim 's message, "What is an ancestor?" on 09:05:18 07/15/03 Tue

Although Herbert never explains that there are significant differences between a preborn and a Reverend Mother (other than a preborn goes through the Water of Life transmutation while in the womb) The process is essentially the same. So it wouldn't make sense that preborns would automatically have access to male ancestral memories after going through the Water of Life transmutations, which would be something completely different than what Reverend Mothers get, unless there is something different about those preborns. What is different about the preborns Alia, Ghanima, and LEto II? They are Atreides. In the novel Dune, Reverend Mohter RAmallo tells Jessica during the Water of Life ceremony that if she had a male child in her womb, the child would die. Thus we know that since Leto II survives a similar process (Chani's Spice diet), there is something unique about the Atreides genes with respect to the male progeny and other memories.
This is why the theory is fairly sound. THe only flaw is the fact that we only see Atreides preborns in the Dune novels and we don't see preborns without Atreides genes. So while it is very logical to hypothesize that it is the Atreides genes that allow for Ghanima and ALia to access male ancestral memory, we can't say it's 100% certain that it is because of this fact. It is only the best educated guess due to the fact that Reverend Mothers without Atreides genes do not have male ancestral memories.

In regards to Leto II and Ghanima not having any of Alia's memories, this is simply because like you said, Alia wasn't a direct ancestor. Leto and Ghanimna would have all the memories of those people who were in their direct line of parentage ie. Paulos Atreides and his wife, Leto Atreides I &Lady Jessica, PArdot Kynes & wife (Pardot's Fremen wife), Liet Kynes & his wife FArula, and finally Paul and Chani. What I am getting at is that those are the people that directly contribute genetic material to create the offspring of Leto II and Ghanima. Alia is not a genetic donor so she isn't in their Other Memory.
Odrade was definitely a direct descendant of Ghanima Atreides. (I can't remember if Taraza was or not). But all the ATreides Reverend Mothers descended from the Atreides line of Ghanima, have male ancestral memory as well as female, from their direct genetic donating ancestors.

As far as how much of Paul's memories that LEto II had, it is unclear. It would really only make any physical sense if Leto II had Paul's memories up to the moment of his conception in Chani's womb. Otherwise it's hard to account for where he would have gotten any of Paul's subsequent memories unless his ability to travel forward and backward in time also afforded him the ability to gain all of Paul's memories from Paul's birth to his death. But again, it's not fully explained.

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Replies:

IDAHO..... -- Crysknife, 15:36:34 07/15/03 Tue
- Ah okay -- IDAHO, 18:34:58 07/15/03 Tue
  - Passage from Dune Messiah -- Green Phoenix, 20:21:41 07/23/03 Wed
    - noo... that's just... -- The Cannabist, 21:52:31 07/23/03 Wed
      - Got it -- Green Phoenix, 10:17:13 07/24/03 Thu
    - Sounds like she didn't have male mems to me. The barron was the exception. (NT) -- Crysknife, 01:09:30 07/24/03 Thu
      - Just the Baron? that's ridiculous. She either does or doesn't. -- The Cannabist, 01:42:38 07/24/03 Thu
        So what you're saying is... -- Ghanima, 10:19:33 07/24/03 Thu
        *sigh* I give up. -- The Cannabist, 15:33:38 07/24/03 Thu
        No worries Cannabist...I agree with you -- IDAHO, 17:16:23 07/24/03 Thu
        Uhhh.... -- Ghanima, 17:30:16 07/24/03 Thu
        Demanded Audience -- AntiPaul, 18:52:07 07/24/03 Thu
        Ghanima...Here is the definition of KH -- IDAHO, 23:20:19 07/24/03 Thu
        Question -- Ghanima, 15:49:19 07/25/03 Fri
        Prescience -- IDAHO, 18:59:34 07/25/03 Fri
        My interpretation of it all... -- Crysknife, 14:20:31 07/25/03 Fri
        One more thing.. -- Crysknife, 15:01:23 07/25/03 Fri
        Good arguments -- Ghanima, 15:41:47 07/25/03 Fri
        Well again -- IDAHO, 19:05:55 07/25/03 Fri
        Thoughts... -- Crysknife, 21:56:17 07/25/03 Fri
        ok -- IDAHO, 13:15:52 07/26/03 Sat
        Another point of view -- tvscks, 19:15:26 07/27/03 Sun
Vioxx bextra celebrex -- Nyx (Vioxx bextra celebrex), 17:20:26 02/20/10 Sat