hmm, very interesting as your posts always are. I asked you this once already but don't know if you saw it or just prefer to keep your privacy, so I'll ask again. Are you a history professor or teacher? As for your point, I will have to disagree somewhat- there are bigger differences than I realized (which is not surprising since i don't know the whole story) however, I still do see a big similarity in singling yourself out in the eyes of a crowd, particularly a crowd gathered in the street to see violence done. It is a much bigger risk than what Jamie did with Beardsly and both Jamie and John risked not only the normal rankling of a crowd and being associated with "criminal" but exposure of things they would wish to keep secret. Then there's the whole calling out and the act of compassion to one who is left with so little, one who others can so easily ignore. And thanks to all of you for taking my criticism so well and answering it even better. -- LJG Discussion board

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Date Posted: 11:55:43 10/15/07 Mon
Author:

susiej
Subject: hmm, very interesting as your posts always are. I asked you this once already but don't know if you saw it or just prefer to keep your privacy, so I'll ask again. Are you a history professor or teacher? As for your point, I will have to disagree somewhat- there are bigger differences than I realized (which is not surprising since i don't know the whole story) however, I still do see a big similarity in singling yourself out in the eyes of a crowd, particularly a crowd gathered in the street to see violence done. It is a much bigger risk than what Jamie did with Beardsly and both Jamie and John risked not only the normal rankling of a crowd and being associated with "criminal" but exposure of things they would wish to keep secret. Then there's the whole calling out and the act of compassion to one who is left with so little, one who others can so easily ignore. And thanks to all of you for taking my criticism so well and answering it even better.
In reply to: maddiej 's message, "The only similarity I see is the "witnessing" of death by hanging. John actually doesn't do this out of compassion; Bates blackmailed him. (He could have not showed up, but as Bates noted, "officer and gentleman". He gave his word, so he'll go.) He's in no danger of being suspected as a sodomite--until he makes that instinctive gesture to end Bates's suffering. I think *that* is a really major difference. He comes reluctantly, and has no deep feeling for Bates (while Jamie was Gavin Hayes "chief," as well as his friend). But he can't let Bates strangle in front of him. He doesn't think anything about "fellow officer" or "there but for the grace of God go I", nor does he think for an instant about his own safety. He just does what has to be done. Jamie is fulfilling his social obligations to Gavin; John is showing instinctive mercy to a stranger. I think the parallel is actually stronger with Jamie's actions toward Aaron Beardsley." on 11:05:21 10/15/07 Mon

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Replies:

Thanks susiej for your thoughts, there really are some moments in the book that were hard to swallow. In PM LJ would hardly have done anything to stand out of the crowd. And he carefully considered the consequences, here he's so very different. The flogging scene in the barracks was another unbelievable passage. Inside please>> -- Helka, 12:53:47 10/15/07 Mon
- Helka>>>> -- susiej, 14:49:52 10/15/07 Mon
  - Oh, and Helka this is totally off topic>>>> -- susiej, 14:54:04 10/15/07 Mon
    - Yes definitely >> -- Helka, 01:56:18 10/16/07 Tue
      - susiej, a music link inside >>> -- Helka, 08:15:14 10/16/07 Tue
- I thought it was an odd scene, but not unbelievable. John had just been reliving Jamie's flogging at Ardsmuir, and Percy was clearly disturbed (maybe excited?) by seeing his first flogging. I thought John's reaction here was a subconscious purging of guilt, as well as a morbid curiosity about just what he'd really done to Jamie, in terms of pain and humiliation. (NT) -- MsNaugha, 14:53:32 10/15/07 Mon
  - oh, good insight- that's a view I can accept. (NT) -- susiej, 14:55:13 10/15/07 Mon
  - Yes! This is how I interpreted it. John's way of punishing himself, and in a strange way, trying to become closer to Jaime. Now he has put himself through what he once put Jaime through. (NT) -- Oleander, 13:54:32 10/16/07 Tue
- I think in PM that it was literally "a private matter." I mean his circumspection is due to the fact that his family is involved. He wouldn't do anything to risk a scandal that would damage them. In BOTB, though, he's in his military sphere, and while there's a family angle, he's dealing with his father, who's dead and can't be hurt, and with Hal, who can certainly take care of himself. (NT) -- MsNaugha, 15:13:22 10/15/07 Mon
Oh, sorry; I must have missed your earlier query. No, I'm a graduate student in English Lit. I've done quite a bit of work on 18th century texts, though, which involved researching supporting cultural references, so I'm fairly familiar with the general attitudes of the time. (NT) -- maddiej, 14:45:24 10/15/07 Mon
- Well, it shows. I always learn a lot from your posts! (NT) -- susiej, 14:51:24 10/15/07 Mon

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