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Wednesday, May 22, 20:15:57

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• Hi tlk2vicki....I have been thinking about this too. Could it be after what happens in Hellfire Club? Or has it yet to be revealed? (NT) -- teddie (), 18:40:24 09/07/07 Fri
  • The only person who may have witnessed an indescretion at the Hellfire Club was Harry Quarry. Yet it was he who preceded John as Governor of Ardsmuir. So I don't think it would have been that occasion that 'banished' Major Grey. (NT) -- tlk2vicki, 18:45:20 09/07/07 Fri
    • Well, then I'm thinking that we may have to wait until Lord John and the Scottish Prisoner....I don't think there's been any other mention of what the scandal entails... (NT) -- teddie, 18:48:32 09/07/07 Fri
    • Hmmm... spelled discretion wrong. Is there such a word as 'indiscretion'? (NT) -- tlk2vicki, 18:49:20 09/07/07 Fri
      • Indiscretion is a word...and you spelled it correctly. (NT) -- teddie, 19:00:04 09/07/07 Fri
  • Interested in chatting on irc? (question about erotica...) (NT) -- teddie (), 18:51:06 09/07/07 Fri
    • teddie, come inside>>>> -- tlk2vicki, 20:27:23 09/08/07 Sat
      • ok! I am at chat now, but I will e mail you soon... (NT) -- teddie, 20:56:01 09/08/07 Sat
  
  

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• So interesting, tlk2vicki! I don't know what the scandal was either, but your comment about the book helping you gain more understanding makes me wonder how DG came up with it all? I often wonder how she came up with the whole idea of Lord John - he appears as a young naive soldier in Outlander but then comes back as Jamie's warden, and is gay, and falls in love with Jamie??! How did she come up with it?! I've always thought it was a brilliant way to create a subversive love triangle that reinforces the power and strength of the core love story and marriage, and I admire DG's decision to create this strong character, and then to make him a leading man in his own series of books. Still of course I wonder how did she "get" him right? And though we love him a lot, I wonder if gay male readers think of him as a hero? OTOH, he's just a character, and I don't want to suggest that he has to stand in and represent the whole "gay experience" in the 18th century. (NT) -- pamelalass, 19:33:49 09/07/07 Fri
  • Hi pamelalass! I'm deep into my Brotherhood re-read, but checking in here frequently. Diana is indeed brilliant in creating these characters and stories, which for me, require lots of re-visits to fully uinderstand the twists and turns..(I can be slow sometimes). I wonder if Lord John has a gay following of substantial number? I did note that on the Barnes and Noble webpage for the book, the sidebar has links for other books in "Gay and Lesbian" categories. (NT) -- teddie, 06:08:41 09/08/07 Sat
    • Yes, I've been wondering about that too -- I guess I kind of fantasize that he has a lot of male fans swooning over him, because I think he's so swoon-worthy, though I'm sure he'd find the whole notion of being a romantic hero kind of silly! *G* OTOH, we know that he does like to read novels, and talk about them at length (eg. Pamela, of course!) so perhaps he might understand the hosed phenomenon after all... (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:17:57 09/08/07 Sat
  • Here's my take on introducing LJ as a soldier who happens to be homosexual. Much discussion and controversy surrounds Jonathan Randall, a soldier who happens to be a psychopathic sadist. DG has stated emphatically that he is NOT a homosexual but a sadist who used men sexually because he knows it is the most destructive tool for a heterosexual male. He used a whip on his victims, not as a seduction, but to systemactically destroy them physically and psychologically. He could use women also but only if she was as unwilling as the men. To introduce a soldier who is honorable, sensitive, understands the meaning of "no", and admires Jamie's character and intelligence without sexual contact really stirs the pot. (NT) -- tlk2vicki, 06:41:57 09/08/07 Sat
    • Thanks so much for coming back to talk about this, ladies. Since he is such a favorite of mine, I find myself pondering all of this quite a lot, but hadn't had the nerve to post about it on the Books board... (sheepish *g*). I completely agree that he exists in the Books to "stir the pot," and I love how DG uses her characters to force readers to examine our assumptions about masculinity, femininity, love, duty, etc. Because he represents something so much more "unknown" to her mainstream readers, John draws a lot of controversy, and having him be in love with Jamie REALLY raises the heat on things. Do you think she decided to do this after readers reacted to BJR in Outlander, or did she have it in mind all along? (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:09:33 09/08/07 Sat
      • That's an interesting question to ponder, pamelalass, since I find few characters in the books that are truly inconsequential. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the whole storyline existed from the start, or maybe subconsciously so, or maybe they talked to her along the way, or maybe who knows what! Lol...Would you consider posting that question over at Compuserve for DG to respond to? I'd love to hear her answer! (NT) -- teddie, 07:46:36 09/08/07 Sat
        • Oh teddie, I'm shy about asking Herself to comment on my random musings... *g* I'm sure most of the essential elements of the Outlander saga were there from the beginning, even if they were not all fully articulated on a conscious, book-specific level. But feel free to pose the question over there yourself, if there seems to be a likely moment! It's amazing/impressive she's keeping up with her forum at all, with the intense pace of her book tour this month. (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:11:03 09/08/07 Sat
          • No, pamelalass, I'll not either...somehow, when I post there, I always end up feeling foolish. My first post there had to do with the theme of euthanasia that presents itself often in the books, but I didn't express myself too well....I'll keep a low profile, then. ( Are you the Pam that posts there with the blonde hair?) (NT) -- teddie, 18:52:48 09/08/07 Sat
            • I've only posted there twice, both times about the early 17th-century portrait of the Duke of Buckingham that LJG and Percy are "ogling" at the Foundling Hospital in BOTB; the Pam with blonde hair posted in that discussion too, but she's not me. *g* I posted as "pamelalass," not having a clue that if I'd used my real name it might possibly have ended up in the acknowledgments instead of my LOL name! But I beg to differ with you about your posts over there -- there's someone who signs as "teddie" though her posting name is something different. If that's you, I always find myself thinking how great your comments are! (NT) -- pamelalass, 19:46:57 09/08/07 Sat
              • My posting name is teepe54...and thank you if that is who you mean, Pamelalass (NT) -- teddie, 19:57:09 09/08/07 Sat
                • Yes! that's it - a smart woman, teepe54. I always learn something from the questions you come up with! There's an interesting new post over at Compuserve about the flogging scene in BOTB and its echo of the Ardsmuir flogging. Makes me realize (again!) how each reader picks up on different elements in the story, and some analyses enrich the meaning, and the story itself, a great deal. (NT) -- pamelalass, 04:48:30 09/09/07 Sun
                  • I think you're referring to my post on the Compuserve board yesterday. I didn't get a response from Diana but I would be happy to talk about it here (more inside >>>>>>>>>>>) -- Karen, 07:50:19 09/09/07 Sun
                    • I felt a strong sexual component when John allows Percy to flog him; not surprising, considering John's feelings for James entwined with his feelings of guilt and shame. Or am I citing the obvious here? (NT) -- teddie, 08:12:32 09/09/07 Sun
                      • You're definitely right about that. The sexual content of his dreams afterward makes that very clear. (NT) -- Karen, 08:19:45 09/09/07 Sun
                    • Hi Karen, and thank you so much for re-posting your wonderfully insightful comments here! The way this scene both echoes and re-imagines the Ardsmuir flogging sequence is quite powerful. >>>more inside >>> -- pamelalass, 08:47:18 09/09/07 Sun
                      • I think you're right that they do need each other, though they won't realize it until they manage to establish a relationship without all the sexual overtones. I agree that Jamie seems much more hostile in this book than in VOYAGER, but then, he's probably at the lowest point of his life since Culloden. Yes, he's a leader of men, and Lord John has taken that away from him, by separating him from the other Ardsmuir men. It's no wonder that he feels a lot of anger and resentment toward John. It will be really interesting to see how all this is resolved, eventually, in SCOTTISH PRISONER. (NT) -- Karen, 09:03:33 09/09/07 Sun
                        • What a treat it is to get the "blanks" filled in for us, regardless of the fact that it is drawn out a bit (thereby enhancing our anticipation!) Not only is DG excellent at her craft, but she is so generous to give us more and more of these characters. Yes; now I am *truly* citing the obvious. (NT) -- teddie, 09:16:14 09/09/07 Sun
                          • Oh, I can't believe this fun discussion is underway and my DDs are running wild all over the place, stuck inside on this rainy Sunday! I will try to convey this next thought briefly, though I may have to come back to articulate it more coherently. >>> -- pamelalass, 09:47:12 09/09/07 Sun
                            • I agree herself has set herself up for a big job in working all this out in The Scottish Prisoner, but we all know from experience that she is up for the task! Just for the folks who might not have seen the link I posted yesterday, you might want to look at what Diana wrote a while back that might help shed some light on her thoughts about this relationship http://community.compuserve.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?msg=50820.3&nav=messages&webtag=ws-books&redirCnt=1 (NT) -- Jane, 11:24:23 09/09/07 Sun
                            • I am so sad I missed this fascinating conversation! I am so glad that I wandered back to the LOL boards- I have always wished that I had people to discuss books (these in particular, or any in general) with the way you all are discussing them! (NT) -- Oleander, 13:18:56 09/10/07 Mon
                          • Teddie, I also have a question for you I was going to email >>>> -- pamelalass, 11:53:18 09/09/07 Sun
  
  

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• Well, it definitely had something to do with a George Everett, remember John thought about asking about him when writing to his mother the first night he arrived at Ardsmuire? (page 123 paperback version Voyager) His brother Hal had told their Mother his banishment was the result of an "unfortunate affair of the heart". Everett was in Hellfire club but that took place after John had returned from Ardsmuire. On meeting George again in Hellfire Everett's perfume reminded John of "tumbled linens, and the touch of hard and knowing hands". By the end of Hellfire Everett was in a fight with John in Medmenham Abbey after John had been drugged and put in a room with a dead woman to set him up and keep him from ratting out the club. I am guessing a pretty serious falling out since John cut George's face with a bit of jagged glass, before Harry Quarry, coming to save John, ran him through. I assumed Everett died. (NT) -- Jane, 19:51:42 09/07/07 Fri
  • Jane, thanks for bringing up the details about Everett...so then, we must wait for the full explanation. I like unanswered questions in DGs books; it means yet another book to look forward to. (NT) -- teddie, 06:03:32 09/08/07 Sat
  • Now I remember all that from Hellfire. It's in my paperback copy of LJATPM, so I need to read it again. (NT) -- tlk2vicki, 06:04:39 09/08/07 Sat
  • I just re-read my post above and noticed some glaring typos. The whole line I'd put after the quote about John's meeting Everett again disappeared! I'd meant to say that it was obvious that the two had been intimate but by Hellfire their relationship had disintegrated. The rest of the typos are just awkward sounding, so I won't confuse you by trying to fix them, but I had to fix that one at least. Sorry guys I have got to get better remembering to preview. (NT) -- Jane, 07:48:07 09/09/07 Sun
    • Oh Jane, you know typos don't matter! It's just fun getting to talk about LJG with you. So Capitola is tonight?! Jessie got a book signed for me in Virginia and I confess I am soooo excited about it! Have a wonderful time, and do tell us what you decide to say to Herself! (NT) -- pamelalass, 08:50:13 09/09/07 Sun
      • You are too kind, thanks being able to over look the many flaws in my garbled post. (NT) -- Jane, 20:23:03 09/10/07 Mon