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Date Posted: 14:00:29 05/01/03 Thu
Author: O-Buuuuuhg
Subject: Michael/Morgan scene
In reply to:
Shanola
's message, "Focus- Part 2" on 21:57:37 04/27/03 Sun
Focus- Part 2
************
Cold water poured down, running over his naked back and splashing at his feet.
Cold water ran down his naked back and splashed at his feet. (Stay away from using ing as much as possible; it makes your verbs passive.)
Michael clenched his sore muscles, trying Omit TRYING to keep himself Omit HIMSELF from shivering for even a moment. Suggest omitting FOR EVEN A MOMENT.
Michael clenched his muscles to keep from shivering.
The salt in the water stung the deep welts crisscrossing his back. He raised his head, Suggest omitting RAISED HIS HEAD since you say HE LOOKED UP looking LOOKED up at his shackled hands. You can omit THEY WERE and just continue the action.
But there’s that looking thing again. How about omitting the looking part all together and saying his hands were shackled to a chain above his head, that the chain was only low enough to allow his toes to touch the floor?
They were encased in heavy manacles and chained, keeping his toes barely touching the ground. His fingers were numb. He strained, trying to move his fingers in a pattern Omit IN A PATTERN to get the blood flowing but it was no use. Suddenly, Omit SUDDENLY, just show the action happening. his body gave in to the cold and he trembled violently. Dropping his head again, Michael began to count, first in French to a hundred, then English, then Chinese. I think it’d be neat to see the first few numbers in French–that way I feel like I’m there and not so much like it’s a writer telling me what Michael’s doing. He continued this way, switching from easy languages to the more difficult, eventually coming back to French. He was still cold, but he wasn't shivering so much now.
One of my research books talks about body temperature monitoring. I’ll have to paraphrase because the book isn’t with me now, but it talked about training an operative to THINK about warmth, to FEEL it begin at the fingertips, move though the fingers to the hand, wrist, up the arms, etc., until the operative WAS warm.
"Michael. How are you?" The voice was Omit WAS dripping DRIPPED, no ing with sarcasm.
New paragraph. Michael raised his head again, opening bloodshot eyes to study his captor. It reads better if you just say Michael studied his captor. and then follow that by letting me see if the captor has a big nose, bushy eyebrows, or a big stupid grin. It’s an invitation of sorts when you say so-and-so looks at whomever. Don’t leave me hanging!
New paragraph. "Do you like the sea? I always have. Salt water is so cleansing." Michael tried to turn his head, to follow the voice Instead of the voice, how about the man, or whatever label Michael’s given him? that was moving MOVED around behind him. Omit either AROUND or BEHIND.
Every movement is going to be a killer, so why does Michael turn his head to follow the man (not the voice, by the way)? If it’s important to Michael about how Morgan perceives him, I’d like to know and to know why.
What follows of the rest of this scene (of your work) was a huge paragraph of action, thoughts and dialogue that should be broken up into smaller paragraphs. Even though Morgan is the only speaker, you’re including Michael’s thoughts and actions by both. Whenever you introduce a new thought (whether it’s action or thought by the same character, but especially when it IS by a different character), you need a new paragraph. There are exceptions and bending of rules, but it’s mainly a stylistic issue and I think it’d be confusing to go into that.
In any case, I’ve broken up the block into paragraphs of my own choosing. *g*
"My, my. Your back is a mess, dear boy." He (Omit HE and add MICHEL so I don’t have to figure out which HE you’re referring to.) flinched as a hand began to trace one of the deep grooves the whip had opened. "Hmmm. Yes, this one is quite deep." The hand moved down a bit, a finger pulling at the sore. This is really sick. And I guess that would be a good thing if one was into this graphic kind of description . . .
New Pargraph. "At least the water washes the blood away. And the cold should help numb the pain some. Although all this salt could cause dehydration. Maybe a little bit of hypothermia."
Since your next to the last sentence talks about salt causing dehydration, it seems by the last sentence that salt also causes hypothermia. (You’re missing a subject in your last sentence, which is a fragment.) If you use fragments, they should continue the thought introduced by the previous sentence or paragraph. (But does salt water on your body really cause dehydration? I honestly don’t know.)
The voice was close to his ear now, the hand moving up and down his back, opening the welts and causing warm blood to mix with the water. (Gross!) Get rid of the words ending in ing. "What do you think, Michael? Hmmm? Thirsty?"
Michael clenched his teeth, fighting to keep his breathing normal, and the shivering at a minimum. Then the hand dropped away as the man stepped around from behind him. Meeting his eyes, Michael studied the face behind the voice. Well, I wish I could see what Michael’s seeing. *g* (I think . . .)
"Water, water everywhere and all the boards did shrink. Water, water everywhere and not a drop to drink. The Rime of the Ancient Mariner. Very fitting. Don't you agree, Michael? Water, water everywhere? But you can't drink itÀ
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The WHOLE Michael/Morgan scene (board burp) -- O-Bug, 14:16:50 05/01/03 Thu
Focus- Part 2
************
Cold water poured down, running over his naked back and splashing at his feet.
Cold water ran down his naked back and splashed at his feet. (Stay away from using ing as much as possible; it makes your verbs passive.)
Michael clenched his sore muscles, trying Omit TRYING to keep himself Omit HIMSELF from shivering for even a moment. Suggest omitting FOR EVEN A MOMENT.
Michael clenched his muscles to keep from shivering.
The salt in the water stung the deep welts crisscrossing his back. He raised his head, Suggest omitting RAISED HIS HEAD since you say HE LOOKED UP looking LOOKED up at his shackled hands. You can omit THEY WERE and just continue the action.
But there’s that looking thing again. How about omitting the looking part all together and saying his hands were shackled to a chain above his head, that the chain was only low enough to allow his toes to touch the floor?
They were encased in heavy manacles and chained, keeping his toes barely touching the ground. His fingers were numb. He strained, trying to move his fingers in a pattern Omit IN A PATTERN to get the blood flowing but it was no use. Suddenly, Omit SUDDENLY, just show the action happening. his body gave in to the cold and he trembled violently. Dropping his head again, Michael began to count, first in French to a hundred, then English, then Chinese. I think it’d be neat to see the first few numbers in French–that way I feel like I’m there and not so much like it’s a writer telling me what Michael’s doing. He continued this way, switching from easy languages to the more difficult, eventually coming back to French. He was still cold, but he wasn't shivering so much now.
One of my research books talks about body temperature monitoring. I’ll have to paraphrase because the book isn’t with me now, but it talked about training an operative to THINK about warmth, to FEEL it begin at the fingertips, move though the fingers to the hand, wrist, up the arms, etc., until the operative WAS warm.
"Michael. How are you?" The voice was Omit WAS dripping DRIPPED, no ing with sarcasm.
New paragraph. Michael raised his head again, opening bloodshot eyes to study his captor. It reads better if you just say Michael studied his captor. and then follow that by letting me see if the captor has a big nose, bushy eyebrows, or a big stupid grin. It’s an invitation of sorts when you say so-and-so looks at whomever. Don’t leave me hanging!
New paragraph. "Do you like the sea? I always have. Salt water is so cleansing." Michael tried to turn his head, to follow the voice Instead of the voice, how about the man, or whatever label Michael’s given him? that was moving MOVED around behind him. Omit either AROUND or BEHIND.
Every movement is going to be a killer, so why does Michael turn his head to follow the man (not the voice, by the way)? If it’s important to Michael about how Morgan perceives him, I’d like to know and to know why.
What follows of the rest of this scene (of your work) was a huge paragraph of action, thoughts and dialogue that should be broken up into smaller paragraphs. Even though Morgan is the only speaker, you’re including Michael’s thoughts and actions by both. Whenever you introduce a new thought (whether it’s action or thought by the same character, but especially when it IS by a different character), you need a new paragraph. There are exceptions and bending of rules, but it’s mainly a stylistic issue and I think it’d be confusing to go into that.
In any case, I’ve broken up the block into paragraphs of my own choosing. *g*
"My, my. Your back is a mess, dear boy." He (Omit HE and add MICHEL so I don’t have to figure out which HE you’re referring to.) flinched as a hand began to trace one of the deep grooves the whip had opened. "Hmmm. Yes, this one is quite deep." The hand moved down a bit, a finger pulling at the sore. This is really sick. And I guess that would be a good thing if one was into this graphic kind of description . . .
New Pargraph. "At least the water washes the blood away. And the cold should help numb the pain some. Although all this salt could cause dehydration. Maybe a little bit of hypothermia."
Since your next to the last sentence talks about salt causing dehydration, it seems by the last sentence that salt also causes hypothermia. (You’re missing a subject in your last sentence, which is a fragment.) If you use fragments, they should continue the thought introduced by the previous sentence or paragraph. (But does salt water on your body really cause dehydration? I honestly don’t know.)
The voice was close to his ear now, the hand moving up and down his back, opening the welts and causing warm blood to mix with the water. (Gross!) Get rid of the words ending in ing. "What do you think, Michael? Hmmm? Thirsty?"
Michael clenched his teeth, fighting to keep his breathing normal, and the shivering at a minimum. Then the hand dropped away as the man stepped around from behind him. Meeting his eyes, Michael studied the face behind the voice. Well, I wish I could see what Michael’s seeing. *g* (I think . . .)
"Water, water everywhere and all the boards did shrink. Water, water everywhere and not a drop to drink. The Rime of the Ancient Mariner. Very fitting. Don't you agree, Michael? Water, water everywhere? But you can't drink it, because it's sea water. What a shame. I'm sure you are very thirsty too. It's been, what? At least 2 two days? Maybe 4 four ? I believe numbers ten and under are spelled out. Or has it only been hours?"
The man smiled again. I’d rather see him do something else. Finger his chin, fold his arms, see his expression cloud over at Michael’s stubborn silence. "I have water for you, Michael. All you have to do is tell me your name. That's not so bad, is it? After all, I already know it. I just want to hear you say it and then you can have some water to wash that metallic, blood taste from your mouth. Maybe soothe your throat a little?"
Too much dialogue without a break for thought, feelings or movement, things that also breathe life into a story. When most people talk, they don’t just stand there like a statue. Some people use broad gestures, some peoples eyebrows go up and down, there’s pausing, throat clearing, you name it. (There’s also too much repetition of the word water, which makes me want to pop Morgan a good one.)
About the say your name, Michael and Michael’s reluctance to do so . . . I vaguely remember reading in one of my research materials about maintaining silence, that it’s a form of control (in this case, probably the victim’s only form of control). At the time the interrogator is trying to break down the victim by making him talk, the victim is trying to counter the interrogator’s position of power by NOT giving him what he wants in order to feel a small measure of confidence to KEEP holding out (which is imperative for the victim). But not everyone will know about this and if you don’t mention the reason for Michael’s stand, it comes across rather silly, IMO.
Michael stared unwavering, watching as the smile melted away and the face became as hard as stone. "No. I didn't think so." Stared or watched, pick one. Suggest getting rid of BECAME (passive). Better yet, just say Michael watched Morgan’s expression turn to stone.
The man turned and signaled to the darkness. Unless he’s a supernatural being, the darkness isn’t going to do squat for him. *g* I’d suggest omitting the first sentence entirely and beginning with this one: Two men stepped forward from If you omit FORWARD FROM, you can add OUT OF the shadows. "You have your time. Just don't kill him or break his jaw. He must be able to speak. Understood?"
If you omit Morgan’s first line about time, the word JUST and UNDERSTAND, you have quite a sinister mood going with an economy of words (a case where less is definitely better because it leaves all sorts of images in the reader’s mind):
“Don’t break his jaw. I want him able to speak.”
The silent men nodded. "Good. Tell me when you're done." The man walked crisply away without looking back. I’d omit these four sentences entirely. Follow with Michael’s focus. Very dramatic!
Michael began to count again, backwards this time, as the two men stepped forward.
************
How're you holding up, Shanola? Do you want to murder me yet?
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Apologies for interrupting the beta, but (r) -- JayBee, 09:42:37 05/06/03 Tue
there was one thing that struck me as a little odd. You wrote:
***Shanola: Cold water poured down, running over his naked back and splashing at his feet. O-bug: Cold water ran down his naked back and splashed at his feet. (Stay away from using ing as much as possible; it makes your verbs passive.)***
I might be misunderstanding you here, but are you criticizing the original wording as being in passive voice? If so, that wouldn't be accurate: the "ing" forms used here are active, not passive. (The "actor" is the water.) That particular "ing" construction is used (now *that's* passive, LOL) to convey simultaneity of actions. That is, the water ran and splashed *at exactly the same time* that it poured. Sometimes, this construction adds a nice vividness to writing, although some writers can overuse it. Personally, I think it works rather well in this particular sentence, although your revision is also nice.
Just my two cents -- and sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying.
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Thanks for bringing that up, JayBee (r) -- Nell, 10:00:38 05/06/03 Tue
I'd been wondering about the same thing; if O-bug meant 'passive voice' - for as you pointed out, Shanola's construction of this sentence was in 'active voice,' 'voice' being the relationship of the subject to the verb - or if O-Bug was making a more personal comment about taste with regards to prefered verb tenses.
Both sentences are nice. Like Jaybee, I think I would lean towards the vividness of Shanola's, but the spare, lean, flat quality of O-Bug's shorter, tighter version is very true to the mood of LFN. Which is to be preferred in this case all depends on the overall style of the piece, I think.
Nell
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What caught my attention ... -- O-Bug, 12:45:38 05/06/03 Tue
... about the opening sentence was the act of water pouring down from a nameless source. That's what really bothered me now that I've looked at it again. I like to see things as they happen when I'm reading, and I'd prefer that the story characters reveal the action, not the writer. I want to forget that I'm reading when I'm reading.
However, when I saw the two ing words, that's what I focused on. I was taught to avoid words ending in ing and ly as much as possible because words ending with these suffixes tend to come across as passive. And yes, that is my opinion. *g*
But, do you know what? I've been hesitant to offer more feedback in the event my comments are keeping others from stepping up to the plate. I don't want my opinions to be the only ones aired.
And like I said in my first feedback bit to Shanola, I think she came up with a great idea. But I also feel like a heel because my feedback indicates that there's a lot more work to be invested, when it appears others may not feel that way.
What else are we to make of the silence? Are people really this afraid to offer critique? And do I look bad because I'm offering it?
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Not everyone (r) -- Athena4, 15:47:25 05/06/03 Tue
Is experienced at Beta-ing, nor is everyone interested in it beyond it being a learning experience to see what beta-readers do. Beta reading is a challenge, and a trial, it's not everyone's cup of tea.. just like writing isn't everyone's cup of tea.
Personally, I haven't found the time to tackle the other two sections, but I do plan to get back to it.
Plus, a lot of people don't read with a "critical" eye. Sometimes its hard to look beyond the excitment of the story and see the potential problems. A lot of people read just for pleasure, and nothing else. So asking them to beta read is asking them to use a part of their mind that they may prefer not to when reading.
There might also be some fear involved. Shanola is an established writer, who has been writing in LFN for several years (although she's been quiet recently). People might fear they'll insult her, or that their comments will be laughed at because they're not "up to standard".
This might be a good example of the "niceness" of LFN fandom. A lot of people might not be willing to "hurt her feelings.
You're not a "heel", nor do you "look bad" for participating. Shanola asked for honest feedback, well aware that some of it might sting. This was her first story, it wasn't perfect - I'm positive that most of us can say that about our first stories.
Don't feel bad about it.
You're participating - this is what Shanola wanted. You've also started some "critical" feedback of your own in people's responses to your betas. It shows a great deal about the subjectivity of beta-reading. Of particular styles etc.
Looking back at my beta, and at yours.. we grasped onto different things. That's just the way is. That's why sometimes, more than one beta is helpful as well. Some people are simply more focused on grammar, others on plot, others on tone.
It's a learning experience. For all of us.
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Um...what Athena said.*g* -- Shanola, 17:46:24 05/06/03 Tue
I agree with what Athena said.
The second part of this, naturally, is the rewriting stage. I still debate on that, but I'm leaning toward rewriting. I'd like to have the entire beta process up there. Some of the changes that have been suggested, I'll take, and some I won't. But all of them have made me think and look critically at the story. That's what a beta is about.*g*
But I don't want to start rewriting until the beta is complete. So please continue. =D
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I'm enjoying the betas, even though I'm not doing one myself... -- JayBee, 18:58:06 05/06/03 Tue
I think Athena explained better than I could why more people aren't offering feedback here. I would only add one more reason (which is the primary one that applies to me): the betas that others (you, ~delle, Athena) have done have, in combination, pretty much covered any topics I would have raised. It's been a lot of fun reading them, and I hope that my (and others') silence hasn't been interpreted as lack of interest.
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