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Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: icky-icky [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 11:28:54 04/02/01 Mon In reply to: Floppy 's message, "Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged" on 11:12:21 04/02/01 Mon Yes Floppy. I would rather see responsible choices being made before sex and not after. I wonder why some on the pro choice side do not advocate that as much as they do women's rights. I mean we are suppossed to be encouraging women to think for themselves and not be submissive to what society tells them they should do or think etc. Choose to be extra careful. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:34:25 04/02/01 Mon Agreed. But I find it funny how you act like "women" are the ones who need to be "more careful" before getting pregnant. Why don't the men learn to keep their pants on unless THEY plan on having to deal with the DECISION MAKING PROCESS of raising or not raising a child. Oh and thanks for encouraging me to think for myself. Do I have that right? Hmmmmmmmm... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: icky-icky [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:04:51 04/02/01 Mon I am not encouraging anyone to think for themselves, or not think for themselves, just pointing out that it is a societal tendancy to have women become more independent. Also, woman are the ones that get pregnant, it is their body right? So make sure it does not get pregnant! However, my intent was not to make it seem as though protection and planning were soley the woman's responsibility. And as for men being part of the descision process, how ludicrous. Men are not even allowed to have an opinion if that woman decides not to have that baby, that is her choice. Although, I would like to point out that if the woman does not abort, the man is the first one the courts look to for financial support. Sounds like a big double standard to me! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Floppy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:50:37 04/02/01 Mon Because, ultimately, the child grows in the female, not the male. So, the female does have more responsibilty. Since it's her body, she needs to take more responsibility. I don't care about the father sticking around, yadda, yadda, yadda. Unless you're an idealist, you need to think "Can I support this child on my own." [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:02:19 04/02/01 Mon What kind of crap is this? Ooooohhhh, I see, it's her biological destiny right? Yea, good point. A womens place is making babies. Get a fuckin clue. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Floppy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:16:42 04/02/01 Mon By the tone of your message, laughability of your response, and quickness to name calling, I would bet that Zisel Ben is actually Derek the Mediocre. Grettings. I have read your past messages, and it seems like you love the name calling. Anyway, my response was to your saying that you: ----Find it funny how you act like "women" are the ones who need to be "more careful" before getting pregnant. Why don't the men learn to keep their pants on unless THEY plan on having to deal with the DECISION MAKING PROCESS of raising or not raising a child.---- Again, maybe it is you simply being idealistic, but I feel that women should be extra careful about becoming pregnant. The thing grows inside of them for nine months. I do not understand how you can argue with that fact. Sure, a noble man stands up and takes his medicine. But, many do not. So, all women should be aware of this, and I am sure that most are. Next time, re-read a post before you run off at the keyboard, ok? I'm sure Anthony would agree with that, as he did in the past. Do not be quick to name-call, and do not matter-of-factly think that other people's opinions are below yours. I have read what you leave. Most of the time, you should not have even bothered. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:24:29 04/02/01 Mon LET IT BE KNOWN THAT THIS IS NOT DEREK. I should not have resorted to name-calling. It was immature. I was passionate and upset. But that is my problem. I will stay focused from now on. "Sure, a noble man stands up and takes his medicine. But, many do not. So, all women should be aware of this, and I am sure that most are." WHY are you letting the Men off the hook? I don't understand this line of thinking? This is exactly the line of thinking that is oppressive towards women. I happen to be a woman by the way. Believe it or not. Maybe my opinions are bias because of my own experiences in this world. This world that seems to constantly blame women for "getting pregnant". It takes two to tango. And Idealistic as it might sound BOTH people are responsible. THAT MIGHT BE AN IDEAL BUT WHAT IS WRONG WITH HAVEING IDEALS? Should we lower our standards simply becuase they are not immediately Realistic? Should we just give up on the fight. I am very disheartening to be thinking that that is what you are implying. Let me know if you think I'm wrong. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Bisel Zen [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:36:16 04/02/01 Mon "Sure, a noble man stands up and takes his medicine. But, many do not. So, all women should be aware of this, and I am sure that most are." How is this letting men off the hook at all? What the fuck are you even reading??? What I posted is a fact. There is no denying that fact. Many men skip out. I was in no way "letting men off the hook." I simply stated a fact. You are not disputing that fact. You are simply trying to twist it into something that you are capable of getting emotional over. I never said that men should not be held responsible. What I posted can not be argued over by anyone of intelligence. I guess you do not realize that. Since you claim to be a woman, how can you not realize that you have more of a vested interest in your pregnancy? What is oppressive towards women is the general feeling that men hold a huge amount of the blame. Part of taking responsiblity for one's body includes taking responsibility for one's pregnancy. It is swell if the man sticks around, but ultimately the woman is physically connected to the fetus. And, I never once said that both parties are not responsible. Everything I have stated is irrefutable. The fact that you, a "woman" of all people, are arguing with me over this is ludicrous, and I kindly ask you to check your rampant emotions at the door before you click "send." [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Floppy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:50:50 04/02/01 Mon Sorry about the cut and paste of your name, Bisel Zen. My bad. Didn't mean to pick up your name. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Bisel Zen [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:56:08 04/02/01 Mon Actually, the good name was stolen from Zisel Ben, and then I swapped some letters. But, no harm, no foul. Anyway, keep up the lively discusion. I've been enjoying it from the cheap seats! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Floppy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:38:33 04/02/01 Mon "Sure, a noble man stands up and takes his medicine. But, many do not. So, all women should be aware of this, and I am sure that most are." How is this letting men off the hook at all? What the fuck are you even reading??? What I posted is a fact. There is no denying that fact. Many men skip out. I was in no way "letting men off the hook." I simply stated a fact. You are not disputing that fact. You are simply trying to twist it into something that you are capable of getting emotional over. I never said that men should not be held responsible. What I posted can not be argued over by anyone of intelligence. I guess you do not realize that. Since you claim to be a woman, how can you not realize that you have more of a vested interest in your pregnancy? What is oppressive towards women is the general feeling that men hold a huge amount of the blame. Part of taking responsiblity for one's body includes taking responsibility for one's pregnancy. It is swell if the man sticks around, but ultimately the woman is physically connected to the fetus. And, I never once said that both parties are not responsible. Everything I have stated is irrefutable. The fact that you, a "woman" of all people, are arguing with me over this is ludicrous, and I kindly ask you to check your rampant emotions at the door before you click "send." [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:56:08 04/02/01 Mon Bisel Zen or Floppy, I do believe YOU were the first person to resort to name calling by twisting around MY name and calling me a "fuckin idealistic hippie." Just wanted to get that straight. My emotions need to be checked at the door? Is that correct? Oh, I must be getting PMS, right? Yea everything I say is irrational...er..due to the fact that I am a woman that is "too emotional". And what's this about how "since Since you claim to be a woman, how can you not realize that you have more of a vested interest in your pregnancy? " Are you assuming that since I'm a woman I automatically have more vested interest in my pregnancy? That's sounds pretty idealistic if you ask me. Maybe I don't care what the hell grows insida' me. Go get rid of it. Gimmee more sex. Ahhhhahhah!!!! No, seriously. I'm getting sick of this debate. I am trying to keep an open mind but I don't think I am going to change mind on the fact that BOTH parties need to be EQUALLY responsible for a pregnancy occurring. From ejaculation until the ultimate death of the creation of that act. "Sure, a noble man stands up and takes his medicine. But, many do not. So, all women should be aware of this, and I am sure that most are." Being Aware is the first step to CHANGING the reality! Change is a beautiful thing. Let's change the fact that "most men skip out" which, incidently is the reason that so many women feel the need to have abortions... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel Ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:00:32 04/02/01 Mon AHHH!!!!! I knew it would happen! I DID NOT POST THAT!!! THAT WAS FLOPPY!!!! DO NOT DIRECT IT TOWARDS ME!!!! Thanks..... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Bisel Zen [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:09:15 04/02/01 Mon Whoops. That should have said "Bisel Zen" and NOT "Zisel Ben." I'm sure you all realize that, though. Sorry again. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:12:15 04/02/01 Mon Interesting slip... How could you "accidently" post with the wrong name? Why don't you do this: Go get your own name and don't make it a conjugation of mine. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Floppy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:25:20 04/02/01 Mon I was using the reasonable man distinction. Most women care if they become pregnant, one way or another. If you are a pregnant woman, and do not care one way or another, then that is beyond the realm of the reasonable. Reasonable man distinction. I neve eluded to you having PMS. You are getting overly emotional in this conversation. You are not making much sense in you arguments, and the points you are making are weak at best. You can be emotional if you want, but do not let it cloud your judgement fully. You have never tried to keep an open mind, since you obviously never truly took the time to understand what I have been saying. Both parties should be equally responsible, but if you know anything about biology, you would know that is impossible. Also... ----Let's change the fact that "most men skip out" which, incidently is the reason that so many women feel the need to have abortions...---- You have no way of knowing that "fact," making that an argument from ignorance. By definition, you have no way of winning that argument. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Bisel Zen [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:45:06 04/02/01 Mon I never refered directly to you as a "fucking idealistic hippy." I was kidding around with everyone. You are touchy, though. Especially with this whole thing with Floppy. Though fun to read, Floppy really isn't writing anything that a reasonable person could argue with. Floppy was actually agreeing with you to a point, and you didn't even realize it. I figured you for a reasonable person. I'm believing more and more that you're Derek, also. You write, and flip out, exactly like he did. Just relax, read the posts over better, and realize when something is directed towards you specifically, and when something is directed towards the group. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:08:54 04/02/01 Mon Floppy, I just want to congratulate you on being such a fine example of ignorance and for your brilliantly displayed lack of understanding of the big picture. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]