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Date Posted: 21:16:39 07/18/01 Wed
Author: Zzoo
Subject: I'm pretty sure "I'll be back." LOL. I need to think about this some more. My knee jerk reaction is that manipulation and class are not mutually exclusive -- intent is definitely a playing party. So far s TMOA is concerned -- perhaps they didn't manipulate well enough? Actually it seems that the show presented manipulators with different agendas working at cross purposes. Had Vivane done a better job of co-opting Morgause, Ygraine, and Morgaine it would have worked. Maybe she just wasn't good enough at her job?
In reply to: Shirleym 's message, "Looking at "classy" and The Mists of A" on 16:58:55 07/18/01 Wed

>Speaking of being a "classy" person... I've been
>thinking about that and about what Nell was saying in
>her complaints about TMOA and it led me to this
>thought - I don't think of myself as a classy person.
> Ok, I know it's hard to be classy when you're a loose
>screw anyway, but that's not the main reason for my
>thoughts. It's because I feel I've used manipulation
>in my life much too much to be a classy person.
>
>Women start out in life watching their mothers
>"handle" their fathers. It's a fact of life. The men
>that were brought up in my generation (and my parents'
>generation) were brought up by mothers who, mostly,
>didn't think it was within the realm of reality to ask
>their sons to be aware, adult, responsible human
>beings. They were after all, "just" men.
>
>That's where the trouble starts. You fall in love
>with someone with character - a good person at heart,
>but you find that his mother forgot to teach him some
>vital things- things he's going to have to know in
>order to protect you, as his woman, in this world.
>Oh, sure, you can handle everything yourself one way
>or another if you have to, but I don't WANT to.
>
>Of course HE thinks he'd defend you to the death, but
>the problem is, he doesn't see the dangers or problems
>unless it's a f@%^&*! fire breathing dragon standing
>right in front of you.
>
>Now, the nice thing for men is that they can just talk
>straight to each other. Yes, egos get bruised and
>pride gets hurt now and then, but they just punch each
>other in the nose and get it over with. Women, on the
>other hand, can talk straight to men in private
>situations till they're blue in the face and it
>doesn't work the same way. Example:
>Say a man is working on your house and you can see
>that the color he's putting on is NOT the color you
>asked for. You talk to him about it calmly and
>rationally and he immediately thinks to himself,
>"s!@#, this woman's gonna be trouble. I'll tell her
>she's a being hysterical and doesn't know what she's
>talking about and maybe she'll go away."
>Have a man say the same thing to him in a calm and
>rational way, and a calm and rational conversation
>ensues.
>So, what does a woman do? She can be classy and just
>be straight and have her life made miserable by it, or
>she can use a little manipulation, in some way getting
>to the man's ego (which is VERY easy to do) so that
>he'll feel he's doing something great and wonderful by
>listening to her.
>
>It all makes me ill, but I do it in everyday life all
>the time. And teaching a man what his mother should
>have taught him is SO much easier when he doesn't know
>he's being taught and his pride isn't in the way.
>Wives shouldn't have to do that kind of teaching, but
>most do... or they don't to it and complain about
>their husbands incessantly and wonder why they want to
>kill someone just before their periods.
>
>And what about women? -
>Oy...
>Try talking straight to most women and see what you
>get. I'm not talking "straight" as in impolite, I'm
>just talking kind, but straight.
>
>I use manipulation - a lot, when all I really want to
>do is be myself. That, in my book, disqualifies me
>from being a "classy" person.
>
>Where I draw the line with manipulation is in things
>that I feel are VERY important - honor - politics -
>and the acquisition of power. I don't mind playing
>the game of politics. You have to know the game and
>play it well - find out what's going on behind the
>scenes, shine a very bright light on the truth and get
>great numbers of people behind you if you want the
>political system to work for you - but that's not the
>same as manipulation.
>
>So... getting back to TMOA, I feel that it was the use
>of manipultion in order to gain power that brought the
>matriarchy down. Of course, I don't know what I would
>do if faced with that situation myself. It was a
>different era, but it feels like a petty and
>dishonorable way to handle things and certainly not
>"classy".
>
>I know this is long and rambling and probably doesn't
>make too much sense at times.
>Any thoughts?

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Replies:

[> [> [> That's what I thought, Zzoo--that Vivane was rather too heavy-handed at it. I would have liked to have seen more subtlety from her. It was probably a case of desperate times requiring desperate measures. -- sw, 22:23:41 07/18/01 Wed


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