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Date Posted: 12:36:07 04/27/02 Sat
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I


The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)








MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.

Stephen James
In Response To Part of the Reason American Kids are Dumb
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 14:32

Http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&ncid=753&e=1&u=/nm/20020426/sc_nm/health_sex_dc_2

"Many studies have shown that open sex education that includes information about
contraception and that also attempts to build self-esteem can lower sexual activity rates and
result in fewer pregnancies and cases of disease, the report says."

"We have over 87 percent of Americans who believe there should be comprehensive sex
education in schools and we have a Congress that does not support this in their legislation,"

"It is a battle between religious conservatives and the rest of the country and the rest of the
world. We are holding young people hostage to ... conservative Christian views and it really is
an embarrassment."

Stephen James
In Response To Ismael
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 14:27

You need to change your VIP Ismael... :-)

Stephen James
In Response To Murray
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 14:26

"you continue to define things by the experiences you have had."

So, by whose experiences should Coinky be defining things by? Calvins? Luthers maybe?
Maybe she should define things based on your experiences, then she could be just like you!
Now wouldn't that be a wonderful thing?

`Ctaj
In Response To Stephen James
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 14:13

McKay found assassination "predictions" in Moby Dick for Indira Gandhi, Rene
Moawad, Leon Trotsky, Rev. M. L. King, and Robert F. Kennedy.

Well, call me Ismael.

`Ctaj
In Response To Connie
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 14:04

Does the viewer have foreknowledge of what floats are coming up next...yes indeed
because he can see them while the person on the ground can't. Don't know how to make it
any plainer than that.

Does the viewer have foreknowledge that the floats might change position during the parade?
Nope. If the can't change position, they have no free will. If they can, the viewer has no
foreknowledge.

Stephen James
In Response To Bible Code is Bunk
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 13:58

Http://www.csicop.org/si/9711/bible-code.html

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink,/All
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 13:58

I have posted on the Alt R1 forum an excerpt from the autobiography of Quaker founder
George Fox. It completely dispels the notion that the Quakers started out to be anything but a
distinctly orthodox Christian group.

On Jesus Christ, Fox says, "I was sent to turn people from darkness to the Light, that they
might receive Christ Jesus; for to as many as should receive Him in His Light, I saw He would
give power to become the sons of God; which power I had obtained by receiving Christ."

On the Bible he says,"Yet I had no slight esteem of the holy Scriptures. They were very
precious to me; for I was in that Spirit by which they were given forth; and what the Lord
opened in me I afterwards found was agreeable to them."

Connie
In Response To Ctaj
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 13:48

Well sheesh! The person watching the parade from above can see the whole thing but has
nothing to do with the changes the parade organizers choose to make..that's their choice or
free will. The viewer can see the choices they make but in no way influences those choices.
Does the viewer have foreknowledge of what floats are coming up next...yes indeed because
he can see them while the person on the ground can't. Don't know how to make it any plainer
than that.

`Ctaj
In Response To Connie
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 13:29

Frankly, I don't see that your parade analogy illustrates the exercise of free will vs.
foreknowledge.

After you relay your message from your blimp to my buddy, does that preclude the
participants in the parade from changing positions? No, it doesn't. In that case, we'd have free
will and you lacking omniscience.

`Ctaj
In Response To Connie
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 13:13

You keep telling him he's wrong because the Denver Post said so but your buddy knows
you and the DP are wrong because I'm telling him what float is coming next because I can
see it from my vantage point above the parade and telling him which float is coming next.

Kinda like me telling you the bible is no more reliable than the Denver Post?

Connie
In Response To Ctaj
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 12:46

Sigh...let's try it this way! You and your buddy decide to go watch the Christmas parade. The
Denver Post has printed out the order in which each float will appear. You are both standing
on the sidewalk watching and you are telling your buddy what comes next; however, I'm
above the parade in the Goodyear Blimp and can see the beginning and the end and passing
the info on to your buddy. You keep telling him he's wrong because the Denver Post said so
but your buddy knows you and the DP are wrong because I'm telling him what float is coming
next because I can see it from my vantage point above the parade and telling him which float is
coming next.

`Ctaj
In Response To Connie
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 12:09

What don't you understand about that statement?

What don't you understand about the fact that if the choice you are about to make is known
beforehand, you don't really have a choice? It was supposedly pre-ordained, so your "free
will" isn't free.

It's all nonsense, of course, because you do have free will, nothing is pre-ordained, and there is
no God with foreknowledge of what's going to happen.

Murray
In Response To Here we go
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 12:02

Round and round we go. Where she stops, nobody knows.

Connie
In Response To Ctaj
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 11:59

You say the author is wrong but I think you are just refusing to give up your preconceived
notion. Note: " Being outside of the creation, He is able to view all of history and each
person's life and choices and see what they choose. What don't you understand about that
statement? Can't be any clearer unless you have a mind that's completely closed.

`Ctaj
In Response To Connie
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 11:50

He is able to view all of history and each person's life and choices and see what they
choose. Pre-knowledge by God does not negate the free will given to each human.The
author is wrong. If He knows how each person is going to choose with pre-knowledge, free
will is moot.

Connie
In Response To Interesting Website
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 11:28

Bible Codes

Also, the philosophical question arises, just how much free will do we have, if the historical
record was written down beforehand in prophecy and the Bible codes? The answer is that we
have free will, but the Author of the Bible and the codes is God, who stands outside the
creation and is not the creation itself as so many new-agers would have you believe. Being
outside of the creation, He is able to view all of history and each person's life and
choices and see what they choose. Pre-knowledge by God does not negate the free will
given to each human.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Ctaj and Murray
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 11:24

It's 9:30. My husband finally got up, so I need to go feed him. See ya later. This morning was
fun. TTFN

*Coinkydink
In Response To Ctaj
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 11:19

Haha, OK, you win an all expense paid trip to my house for carrot cake and iced tea!
Yippee! Aren't you thrilled?

*Coinkydink
In Response To Doctrines
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 11:18

God is our Father who created us and we love him because we are his children and his love is
in us. This is the first true doctrine. Any other doctrines can be true or not true, depending on
one's adherance to the first one. That is, if God's love is not in him, then whatever else he says
is a lie.

`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 11:14

Do you think it is possible that the still small voice inside us might be God speaking? And
two, Do you think God is something separate from us or is he possibly inside us?

If I pick the right door, do I win a prize? OK, I pick door #3.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 11:08

" So, it's easy to talk about everyone being our brother and God being Father of us all, but the
extent to which this type of spirituality drives us is our measure." Yes, this and the extent to
which we realize that God is already in us...our relatedness to God is one of the key points of
Jesus' teachings, that sometimes is dilluted by the approach to God as something seperated
and outside ourselves. Doctrines can truly, as you say, get in our way to seeing God.

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink, all
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 11:05

Later, gators.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Ctaj
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 11:01

"Conscience: that still, small voice that makes us feel still smaller." Two questions come to
mind: Do you think it is possible that the still small voice inside us might be God speaking? And
two, Do you think God is something separate from us or is he possibly inside us?

*Coinkydink
In Response To Ctaj
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 10:57

I looked up Matthew Fox because I didn't know who he was...He was a Dominican priest
who wrote some theology books based on a Creationist view of sprituality and got in trouble
with the Vatican. He's not a quaker, but some of his views are in sinc with some of theirs.

Murray
In Response To Coinkydink 10:43
Saturday April 27, 2002 at 10:57

I share some of these thoughts. I also believe there is a lot more to it than this. Likewise, the
measure of our devotion to this type of thing can easily be seen by others. So, it's easy to talk
about everyone being our brother and God being Father of us all, but the extent to which this
type of spirituality drives us is our measure.

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