VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, [3], 4 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 12:48:37 04/22/02 Mon
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I


The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an environment relatively
free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be challenged and/or heavily debated.
Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any other PC forum totally distorts the original message
made, gives a biased slant and is inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the
intelligent choice. Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a backup forum. :)








MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.

Murray
In Response To TMS
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:47

I see your point. I can see, from your perspective, what you are talking about. Everything you say is correct and it
is a reasonable conclusion to reach that the best way the rank and file Catholic can bring about change is to vote
with their feet. Also, you are probably the type of person that makes your mind up about things very quickly and
doesn't look back. People that don't do that probably drive you nuts. Like it or not, the world is full of that type of
person. Many will, much to your chagrin, take a wait and see attitude because that's how they decide most things.
But, yes, you make excellent points and I have to agree with them. My style would be to withhold my offerings
and maybe pull back a little and see what develops. I actually did that once.

RonB
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:45

That's what you get when you base your society's system of morals and ethics on myths that most folks don't
really believe.

Actually, no. When religion was taken seriously in this country, our moral fiber was much stronger. Do you really
believe that our country is Christian in this day and age?

`Ctaj
In Response To Forum Regular
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:42

Coward.

RonB
In Response To Ten Megs
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:42

1) The so-called "True Church" (no truer, nor less, than any other, I agree) condones child rape and
homosexuality in act, while condemning it with words.

Of course you will find nothing in Catholic Doctrine condoning child rape and homosexuality. What you will find
are fallible men, unfortunately in the Church, more intent on protecting themselves and their pervert friends, then
on protecting the flock they are supposed to guard from the wolves. Keep watching. I think Cardinal Law's days
are numbered.

`Ctaj
In Response To RonB
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:41

the fact is that our society has gone to the dogs.

That's what you get when you base your society's system of morals and ethics on myths that most folks don't
really believe. Better they should be taught morals and ethics based on mutual self-interest in the here and now.
That applies to everyone, not just believers.

Forum Regular
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:41

Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:26

Here's some BS:

Boy, you can say that again! That's ALL we get from you!

RonB
In Response To Ten Megs
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:37

Crap. They've got cases and allegations of cases going back fifty and sixty years, well before the so-called
"sexual revolution".

While I agree that blame-shifting is simply a dodge to keep from accepting responsibility for their absolutely
inexcusable actions in this matter -- the fact is that our society has gone to the dogs. Would you deny that there
are more pedophiles in the society at large, and even in our schools and Protestant churches? This is not a
problem isolated in the Catholic Church. It is inexcusable that it is there, but Catholic Church is not the only place
where pedophiles prey on children.

Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:26

Here's some BS:

At St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York, Monsignor Eugene Clark talked about factors that have contributed
to the troubles with priests, including "homosexuality in seminaries."

He cited influence of the culture of the day and the "sex-saturated" society, and said Americans are
bombarded by images of "liberated sex all day long, all evening long."

Crap. They've got cases and allegations of cases going back fifty and sixty years, well before the so-called "sexual
revolution". Blaming their sickness on the rest of us is typical of alcoholic denial.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:18

[Monsignor Francis Maniscalco] said they would examine whether there was any situation where a
pedophile priest could continue in his ministry, such as in a chaplaincy for an old-age home.

I hear there's always openings for ministries in state prisons. Or is he discussing their post-release careers?
Somehow I don't think so.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:16

I say "all" because those that have not yet been implicated have failed to call for the resignation of the others, so
they're motivations are clear and are definitely not remorseful.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:15

What if Ron has decided to stay and fight with everything he's got against all of this from within?

He cannot. They won't see him. They'll just see his anonymous collection plate donation. Catholics who truly
regret what they have been forced to support will be best noticed when they leave.

Catholics who do not leave cannot be said to truly regret what their church continues to do. Right now the
cardinals are meeting to figure out the best way, not to punish the offenders, but to minimize the impact on the
church without demanding they resign.

The Catholics should boycott the Church and demand that all Cardinals currently in power resign. I say "all"
because those that have not yet been implicated have failed to call for the resignat

Murray
In Response To TMS
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:07

Everyone seems to agree the corruption is horrible, Ron included. You say that that, by not leaving, Ron is
supporting the corruption and the perpetrators thereof. What if Ron has decided to stay and fight with everything
he's got against all of this from within? Would you still persist in saying that, by staying, he is giving some kind of
tacit support? Even though he hates it and is fighting against it?

Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:07

They Need Guidance?
Monsignor Francis Maniscalco, spokesman for the U.S. Bishops' Conference, said the cardinals would seek
Vatican guidance on whether pedophile priests can stay in the ministry or whether a "one strike and you're
out" rule should be applied.

The Bible is pretty clear on what to do with homosexuals. The law is very clear on what to do with pedophiles.
What's wrong with those people? The moral course is to defrock the offending priest, and turn him over to the
cops.

As I said, the True Church is happy so long as the money rolls in, and they'll do whatever they need in order to
make the collection flow.

`Ctaj
In Response To RonB
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:03

Pray the Colorado Rockies into a World Series sweep. That would convince me.

I need to qualify that. The law of averages will get the Rockies to a World Series win eventually. I meant this year.
You have to call your shot to convince me.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 13:55

Ron has already answered your question. By his previous answer, he is apparently saddened and sickened
by the whole rotten mess and yet believes the church will eventually deal with it properly and move on. I
think his position and his answer should be respected.

I respect it just fine. I'm just calling it what it is. If he respects his position, he won't mind when the objective
viewer identifies supporters of the True Church as supporters of pedophilia and rape, for that is what the True
Church is supporting and covering up.

If he doesn't support pedophilia and rape, his feet should be headed out the Church door.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Ron B
Monday April 22, 2002 at 13:52

There are nothing wrong with Catholics, they are members of the True Church. There are some Catholics
who have currently betrayed the Church and have turned from Her Doctrines, but that does not make the
Church evil.

1) The so-called "True Church" (no truer, nor less, than any other, I agree) condones child rape and
homosexuality in act, while condemning it with words.

2) The "betrayer" is the Pope. Who is selected "by God", or in reality, by men who were selected by other men in
millenia old political games. If there was God in the True Church, She's never acted to end the fraud or the abuse.
Not once.

3) People that continue to support the "True Church" in the light of this are supporters of child molestors and
rapists.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Veracity's Link
Monday April 22, 2002 at 13:47

Now you might have noticed that I keep using the word concept and not theory. The theory of evolution is
dead.

This person is not qualified to discuss matters of science. He does not understand the definition of the word
"theory", and he attempts to warp words from their proper definitions in order to establish a point reachable only
by standing on false ground.

I'm not wasting any more time on him.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Veracity's Link
Monday April 22, 2002 at 13:43

Incidentally, few of us recognize that the Bible actually teaches that the world began with one land mass and
that modern geologists have merely caught up with that idea. On the third day also, the Bible teaches that
plant life was created and separated, "each after its kind."

But it didn't. It oringally started with one land mass and no oceans. The oceans came after the heat of accretion
was sufficiently dispelled to permit condenstation. Furthermore, the original continental arrangement is lost in the
mists of time and frankly, the chances that all of the lightweight rock rising to the surface and creating a monolithic
continent is far smaller than having contininental nucleation happen in several distinct locales.

Murray
In Response To RonB 13:08
Monday April 22, 2002 at 13:42

The One with whom nothing is wrong is Jesus Christ. Our responsibility and devotion to Him must be pure. We
should all be more like Paul who said, "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and
him crucified." (I Cor 2:2) Many have, as Paul intimated, become led astray from sincere and pure devotion to
Christ. (2 Cor 11:3)

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Veracity's Link
Monday April 22, 2002 at 13:39

Consider the brain - the world's most sophisticated computer is slower by a factor of a hundred to a
thousand than any one human brain - one of the most sophisticated, incredibly complex organs of the body.
It performs feats of engineering impossibilities that are absolutely beyond our comprehension.

So? This isn't evidence for "design", no more than the orangutan's "engineering feat" of swinging through trees.

`Ctaj
In Response To RonB
Monday April 22, 2002 at 13:35

Pray the Colorado Rockies into a World Series sweep. That would convince me.

`Ctaj
In Response To RonB
Monday April 22, 2002 at 13:33

And, as I've mentioned in the past, your "reality" automatically denies anything outside the "limits" of nature.
It's your faith that, despite the testimony of many, many men and women, you "know" that they were all
wrong, because you "know" that miracles can not exist. This is not a reality, but a species of faith.

I can be convinced. Prove me a miracle.

`Ctaj
In Response To RonB
Monday April 22, 2002 at 13:21

And the lance? Are you aware that the scourging that our Lord received, quite often was enough to kill the
victim on its own?

No, and you aren't aware of it, either. If Barnabus, the Centurion Executioner (later Christian preacher) was in on
the ruse, he could easily have inflicted a non-fatal flesh wound, and neither you nor the distant crowd would know
the difference.

dori
In Response To Ron
Monday April 22, 2002 at 13:16

Howdy! I had time to read the sites today, but only had time to post a couple. I did notice a lot of activity over in
the pit. Got 'em all hissin up a storm, have ya? Hee hee... It was my bright spot of the morning.

RonB
In Response To Ten Megs
Monday April 22, 2002 at 13:08

Just in case you missed it the first time. Question: What is wrong with Catholics that they cannot quit such an
evil church? Are they blind? Or suckers?

There are nothing wrong with Catholics, they are members of the True Church. There are some Catholics who
have currently betrayed the Church and have turned from Her Doctrines, but that does not make the Church evil.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.