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Date Posted: 13:54:57 04/22/02 Mon
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I


The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)








MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Connie
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:18

It's not just Boston, and it's not just the Catholic Church. What makes the RC Church more
susceptible than others is it's size, and it's bureacracy.

What I've researched seems to indicate that Protestant churches also have sex abuse
problems, but that the hierarchy is less able (or less likely) to cover them up (and a higher
incidence of heterosexual abuses, and people listen to little girls more).

Anyway, the Protestant churches apparently have less success in cover-ups, so the pressure in
the boiler never gets too high.

There will always be, where ever adults are placed in positions of authority over children, men
who will take advantage of it. Even up to the Presidency of the United States, apparently. The
whole United States did nothing about

RonB
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:17

Then you should be one of the Rockies faithful. St. Louis is one of the few teams to lose the
season series to the Rockies last year, and again so far this year.

The Cardinals always manage to lose to teams below .500. You'll notice they've given the
Brewer's new manager a heck of a start also. I've got nothing against the Rockies, but I've
been a St. Louis fan since I was a kid.

Forum Regular
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:14

Or whiney little brats used to having their own way. ;)

GerryB.
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:14

RE: "Jesus didn't know him, so Jesus couldn't have 'chosen him' to spread the gospel."

You just don't get it do you. Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah. He is God in human flesh. 100%
man and 100% God in the same person. Of course God knew who Saul of Tasrsus was. Yes,
He chose him.

RonB
In Response To Ten Megs
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:13

That's my point. You're not "fed up". When I'm "fed up" with something, I stop eating.

Because certain priests, and certain Cardinals are guilty of child molestation or protecting child
molestors, does not mean that 1) all in the Catholic Church are guilty, or 2) the Catholic
Church is not the True Church.

If the Church depended on fallible men it would have, long ago, died and been a distant
memory.

RonB
In Response To Ten Megs
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:10

If the Pope is "weak", he's still doing exactly what God says. and it takes no effort at all to
say "Cardinal Law, you're excommunicated".

Where do you find, in Catholic Doctrine, that the Pope does "exactly what God says?" If that
were the case, all popes would be saints. A pope can be as sinful, or more sinful, as any man
-- and that is definitely not listening to God. What a pope can not do, according to the Catholic
Doctrine, is teach errors in Doctrine ex cathedra. That is all papal infallibility asserts.

The Pope should excommunicate Cardinal Law, or at least remove from his position and
demand he spend the rest of his life in penance -- but this Pope may be too weak for that
necessary action.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Forum Irregular
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:09

My hormones would have to out of whack to the point of unconsciousness before I'd say
"nanny nanny boo boo". Women seem to have no problem with it, though.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Ron B
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:08

too many good Catholics are fed up with this whole sick affair.

That's my point. You're not "fed up". When I'm "fed up" with something, I stop eating. They'll
know you're fed up when you stop going. Someone should establish Mother's Day as
"Catholic Boycott" day, and all you fed up people should abstain from church that day as a
signal. God would understand, I'm sure. It might even be noticed by the Pope.

But until a positive grass roots (or whatever the religious equivalent would be called) action is
taken, the helm of your Church will continue on its path, not yours.

Forum Regular
In Response To T M S
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:07

Re: Forum Irregular: If what you said was true, you wouldn't have to hide. You're a liar,
and a coward, and I couldn't care less what you "feel".

The only thing you left out of that diatribe was a Nanny Nanny Boo Boo, a flounce off the
forum and a slammed door. You know hormonal imbalances occur in men, too, don't you?

`Ctaj
In Response To RonB
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:06

I can't, I'm a St. Louis fan.

Then you should be one of the Rockies faithful. St. Louis is one of the few teams to lose the
season series to the Rockies last year, and again so far this year.

Connie
In Response To Forum
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:05

I have to agree with what TMS posted also. I find it ironic that the worst offenders seem to be
in that most liberal state (Massachusetts) and city (Boston) but I can't say I'm surprised. I've
never understood why the RC church, who's views on abortion and homosexuality have
always been clear, haven't excommunicated Teddy Kennedy and other Roman Catholics of his
ilk who have pandered to those groups, i.e. feminists/homos, for votes which resulted in laws
legitimizing such acts. BTW it's not only the RC church which failed the people in this
regard...all church leaders who did not speak out failed in their duty. Of course, those who did
have the courage were demonized unmercifully and still are.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:04

They are basically politically inept, however...the Stupid Party

Yes. The Califonia Libertarian Candidate's page features a wide number of freaks who
would never be elected, ranging from the Governor candidate that advertises his
adherence to Wicca (not that I care, but he's turned off countless voters by doing that), to
the candidate for the legislature who feels ferrets are the most important issue, to the
dozens of people that can't get a haircut or buy decent clothes for the photo.

The Libertarians have the best philosophy, and I think because of the independence that
implies, they'll never be a player.

RonB
In Response To Ten Megs
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:04

It has made every effort possible to defuse the issue without cleaning up the mess.

I'm not arguing with you there. Very rarely do the guilty "come clean" of their own volition. But
I think they will be forced to "come clean" whether they want to or not -- too many good
Catholics are fed up with this whole sick affair.

RonB
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:01

Pray the Colorado Rockies into a World Series sweep. That would convince me.

I can't, I'm a St. Louis fan.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Ron B
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:00

It has made every effort possible to defuse the issue without cleaning up the mess. The Los
Angeles diocese has repeatedly paid accusers off rather than face court. This is routinely called
"hush money" when racketeers in the Mob do it. It is still "hush money" if God's Panderers are
doing it. If the Pope is "weak", he's still doing exactly what God says. and it takes no effort at
all to say "Cardinal Law, you're excommunicated".

The key issue the Church is worried about is money, not morals, not God, and not what you
want. Keep that straight.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Ron B
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:00

So, since we have rapists and child molestors in our country, and our tax dollars pay for
the lawyers who sometimes get these vermin released on the street, are Americans all guilty
of rape and child molestation? Great "logic."

What I said was "Great logic,". What you said is "bad analogy". Last time I checked, taxes are
extorted from the taxpayer under threat of prison or bodily injury. You're voluntarly paying for
your molesters.

As for the Pope being guilty, we will see. If he is "guilty" it is because he is weak -- but
even if that is the case, it has nothing to do with his infallibility or the Doctrines of the
Church (which never has, nor ever will, condone child molestation).

It has made every effort possible to defuse the issue

RonB
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:59

Our tax dollars aren't voluntary contributions.

Nor do I contribute to Cardinal Law or the current American Catholic Church establishment.
But I do remain a Catholic and support and pray for the Church.

Murray
In Response To TMS
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:58

Yeah, I'm a Repub and I hate it. I hate the rest of them just a little bit more, though. I am a true
libertarian and the Libertarian party probably comes closest to my views. They are basically
politically inept, however. If the Republicans are the stupid party, the Libertarians are the
really stupid party. So, I stay because I love to vote in the primaries and Independents can not
do that in my state. If they could, I'd switch to Independent and be done with the parties for
the time being.

RonB
In Response To Ten Megs
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:57

No. But clearly the Lord's devine representative in the flesh, the Pope himself, doesn't seem
to think there's anything wrong with it. It does appear that the main concern is how to
keep the marks in line with their wallets open.

We will see. But, even if what you say is true, it does not touch on the Doctrines of the Church
or on papal infallibility. The pope can be the chief of sinners, what he is preserved from doing
is teaching errors in doctrine, ex cathedra, (from the chair). This whole, sordid affair has
nothing to do with Catholic Doctrine or the teaching authority of the Church.

`Ctaj
In Response To RonB
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:56

That said, even accused priests deserve a fair trial.

`Ctaj
In Response To RonB
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:55

So, since we have rapists and child molestors in our country, and our tax dollars pay for
the lawyers who sometimes get these vermin released on the street, are Americans all guilty
of rape and child molestation? Great "logic."

Our tax dollars aren't voluntary contributions.

RonB
In Response To Ten Megs
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:52

3) People that continue to support the "True Church" in the light of this are supporters of
child molestors and rapists.

So, since we have rapists and child molestors in our country, and our tax dollars pay for the
lawyers who sometimes get these vermin released on the street, are Americans all guilty of
rape and child molestation? Great "logic."

As for the Pope being guilty, we will see. If he is "guilty" it is because he is weak -- but even if
that is the case, it has nothing to do with his infallibility or the Doctrines of the Church (which
never has, nor ever will, condone child molestation).

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:50

Yes. I finally got fed up with the Republicans and left, and many who haven't are still defending
the indefensible. Some people need to be prodded. And I am more than annoying enough to
serve that function.

`Ctaj
In Response To Forum Regular
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:50

Really. I used Henry when Ctaj was blocked out, and I let everyone know who Henry was.

Forum Regular
In Response To Henry
Monday April 22, 2002 at 14:49

Oh, really?

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