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Date Posted: 09:54:50 04/24/02 Wed
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I


The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)








MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.

Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 22, 2002 at 17:22

I just had another "billiant idea", (don't I always) since Catj and Ten Meg seem to have all
the answers, why don't we send them "over there" to make "peace" in the Middle East.

I wouldn't want to go there. The best solution is to nuke the place and drill through the glass to
get the oil.

Murray
In Response To Sim
Monday April 22, 2002 at 17:19

Hay Sim. Went to see a production of Daniel at Sight & Sound Theatre in Lancaster, PA. It
was good. The fiery furnace scene was outstanding. You would have liked it.

Sim 2
In Response To Ya'll
Monday April 22, 2002 at 17:09

I just had another "billiant idea", (don't I always) since Catj and Ten Meg seem to have all the
answers, why don't we send them "over there" to make "peace" in the Middle East.

Why I'd bet they have "Jews and Arabs" hugging and kissing each other within 24 hours.

Hay, they might even prove to be the Antichrist and his prophet, but nobody will notice the
"war" they'll fight between themselves, to be "top dog".

`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Monday April 22, 2002 at 17:04

Have you considered the consequences of EVERYONE subscribing to that preposterous
notion (celibacy)? The human race would have ended in a single generation.

`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Monday April 22, 2002 at 17:03

"By stepping forward despite this warning, when invited to do so, and by co-operating in
the rest of the ordination service, the candidate is understood to bind himself equivalently
by a vow of chastity. He is henceforth unable to contract a valid marriage, and any
serious transgression in the matter of this vow is not only a grievous sin in itself but incurs
the additional guilt of sacrilege."

So, he can opt out any time.

dori
In Response To ~more~
Monday April 22, 2002 at 16:48

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the
things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with a wife, is solicitous
for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. And the unmarried
woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and
spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of this world how she may please her
husband. And this I speak for your profit, not to cast a snare upon you, but for that which is
decent and which may give you power to attend upon the Lord without impediment. (I Cor.,
vii, 7-8 and 32-35.)

Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 22, 2002 at 16:42

Hadn't thought of it exactly in that way before, but, yes, that is a deadly observation.

dori
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 22, 2002 at 16:41

The vow of celibacy is unnatural to me and I hope one day the church will withdraw that
condition. Otherwise we will have fewer and fewer priests to carry on the faith.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
(During the ceremony, the candidate is given one last chance to change his mind.)
"By stepping forward despite this warning, when invited to do so, and by co-operating in the
rest of the ordination service, the candidate is understood to bind himself equivalently by a vow
of chastity. He is henceforth unable to contract a valid marriage, and any serious transgression
in the matter of this vow is not only a grievous sin in itself but incurs the additional guilt of
sacrilege."

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 16:37

Is this about dyslexics?

Murray
In Response To A Modern Day Parable
Monday April 22, 2002 at 16:31

THE DOG LOVERS CLUB

If TV can do reruns, so can I. :)

`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Monday April 22, 2002 at 16:07

Ron took off without answering my questions about where the idea of celibacy in the church
came from. Do you know? About all I know about the Catholic Church I learned from
watching The Soprano and The Godfather reruns.

`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Monday April 22, 2002 at 16:05

Or, maybe the priest confessed. I'd be a bit concerned about the situation of unproven
allegations were all that's required to ruin a man's career.

dori
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:59

Well, Ctaj, it was an allegation of a supposed incident that took place twenty years ago and
came out while the man was in psychoanalysis. No other charges of that sort were brought out
before or after against the priest. Maybe the DA gave the priest the benefit of the doubt. The
parish council didn't. Ta ta... the pups are clamoring.

`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:55

it would take a PHD to fathom your point

A PHD is a testament to determination and endurance, not necessarily perceptiveness or
intelligence.

Murray
In Response To dori
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:52

I notice you not refuting me and using my post as a chance to hurl a sarcastic comment back in
my direction.

`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:49

On a serious note, we had a neighboring parish lose their priest after service there for a
number of years because a man charged him with molestation while he was a child at
camp. As soon as that story hit the papers, he was retired from the priesthood.

What? No trial? Guilty by accusation? What kind of a deal is that?

Murray
In Response To RonB
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:47

I notice you not refuting my previous. As far as understanding your relationship with God is
concerned, would it or would it not be discerned from your own words? In that case, there is
plenty of grist for the mill as you are nothing if not wordy. Yes, I am the same way, I know. In
any case, it seems to me that you are almost desperately attempting to communicate what you
believe. Your whole emphasis is on the church. The church this, the church that. The church is
not permanently invested with authority to teach any more than the tail of the dog is
permanently invested with the ability to wag. You can stare at that tail all day long and get
yourself convinced that it wags the dog after a while. It still wouldn't be true, though.

dori
In Response To Ron
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:44

Admirable job of answering some of the tough questions put to you. See you later. I too have
had my fill of this place for now. Puppies are infinitely more appealing, and I think I hear one of
them breaking down the screen door now! Yikes! C'ya!

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Doris
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:42

And of course, the problem with the Church in the future will be the enormous numbers of
false allegations. Which will require more openness to deal with, not less.

This result is the natural by-product of the cover-up, though, and will only be ameliorated by
complete honesty and a reliance by the church on secular law enforcement for resolution. (And
we all know how honest the DA's aren't.)

dori
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:40

Re: "Unfortunately, it takes self dimension to be able to see my point."

With all due respect, it would take a PHD to fathom your point, and we all know what an idiot
I am! I see you're still speaking for others. It looks like you're having a hard enough time
speaking for yourself, sweetie. Try some of that "self dimension" on yer ownself.

Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:39

Sigh...I have no responsibility towards my grandparents (and I'll pretend they're not all dead,
which they are, for this discussion). I have no responsibility towards my own parents, who are
not dead. I do have a responsiblity towards my children. I will not permit them to be in the
care of anyone I do not trust.

The fallacy of the example, of course, is that the local priest is some Joe from college come to
listen to your life's deepest secrets and to guide you spiritually. He's as deserving of your
loyalty as the next schmuck they'd put in his place if they shuffled him off to another diocese if
your kid made an allegation of abuse against him.

Are you capable of understanding the distinction between family member and priest?

RonB
In Response To All
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:38

I've got to go run errands. I've been here longer than I should have been. Sorry for ducking
out.

dori
In Response To Ctaj and Ron
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:35

Now THERE'S an idea! I'll bet a few enterprising Knights of Columbus members would take
you up on that.

Ron: First things first... grin. Get the bum outta the church and throw him in jail. On a serious
note, we had a neighboring parish lose their priest after service there for a number of years
because a man charged him with molestation while he was a child at camp. As soon as that
story hit the papers, he was retired from the priesthood. I don't know if he was charged with
anything. It may still be in the courts.

Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:34

Search Results - papal+ex+cathedra+pronouncements

RonB
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 15:34

No matter how many times you say that the tail wags the dog, it doesn't.

And no matter how many times you claim to understand Catholic spirituality and my own
specific spiritual life --you don't. Just because you find "religion" (as you define it) detracts from
your personal view of what Christianity is supposed to be, doesn't mean you know how my
religion strengthens my faith and brings me closer to God.

Quite honestly, I'm beginning to find your patronizing platitudes a bit tiresome. I'm glad you've
found what you think to be the truth. Don't assume you understand, however, my relationship
to God. You are not my Judge.

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